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Old 06-28-2003, 09:54 PM   #16
invictus
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Quote:
Originally posted by twilli227
I have had problems, and I will ask for help. I will not complain about something and not do anything about it.
If you have a problem and figure out a way to solve it, one more person knows the answer.

If you have a problem, figure out how to solve it and post a HOWTO about it, a few thousand people know the answer.

If you have a problem and talk to the developers about it, (since chances are, you're not the first nor the last to come across it) there is no more problem, hence no need to waste time searching for an answer.

If you look at the top, my purpose to this thread was also to collect a list of resources. If you want to contribute and get involved, feel free to post a link or two to some easy-to-use apps you like.

The thread's already helped; before Thyrox mentioned it, I hadn't realized there was an automount util. I don't particuarly need one but someone else might.
 
Old 06-29-2003, 12:37 AM   #17
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Games

Windows is the premium gaming platform. nVidia and ATI have dudes working in shifts to improve their windows drivers year in year out.

They both threw Linux some drivers as well. I suppose this was nice of them but the drivers are perhaps not quite as polished.

(I've used both sets of drivers for Linux and quite liked them both really) but as long as the same game on the same hardware on windows gets an extra 5 fps the public will flock to it. Fair enough, sometimes those 5 frames make the difference.

Where Linux really has the edge here, and I don't believe this has been looked at thoroughly, is to take the elitist point of view and turn it to advantage. What spoils an online game most ? The snot nosed, thoughtless twerps who ruin the fun for others. The imbeciles. So, to cut a long story short, the Linux online gaming slogan could be - Linux, we've weeded out the dolts for your gaming pleasure.
 
Old 06-29-2003, 12:47 AM   #18
invictus
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Re: Games

Quote:
Originally posted by Pres
So, to cut a long story short, the Linux online gaming slogan could be - Linux, we've weeded out the dolts for your gaming pleasure.
lol! Would've been true if all (or nearly all) multiplayer games released for Linux were not also available on other platforms

And yes, game companies go where the money is, which means the largest market slice, Windows machines. Sad but true. And there are no Earth and Beyond Linux releases, either.
 
Old 06-29-2003, 01:00 AM   #19
MasterC
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I think for now it's just time. Linux is slowly getting to more and more desktops. Speeding that up could only come from the major PC distributors (Gateway, Dell, HP, Compaq) giving the **OPTION** to have Linux (say Mandrake) installed as the default OS, with say, OpenOffice as their Office Suite. There would have to be a few pioneers that get the ball rolling, and then eventually it would snowball into what windoze has today.

Mandrake, SuSE and Lindows are really going to be the best choices for those major PC distributors to look at for offering to these people. They aim for that crowd. If Mandrake scored a contract with Dell, I'm sure licensing would even be at a lower cost for their PP suite, saving Dell even more money, yet ensuring a quality product is being put out to the end-user.

Linux is mature enough to go onto the desktop market. Mandrake is easy enough for just about anyone to use. Windoze is driving it's customers away with it's current marketing schemes and people simply need a place to turn. Dell can offer that place to them. It simply needs to give it's customers what everyone wants, choice. XP or Mandrake - Linux. Offer it at the same price, tech support through Mandrake via it's PP suites free tech support feature, so Dell won't even have to get involved with that. Well, very little anyway.

So what does M$ do better than Linux, forces people to use it's product.

Once that's overcome (I don't see a lot of backwards compatibility with linux to windoze, but there sure is a LOT for windoze to linux..) and the dust settles, then we will see what is actually needed for the newbies, since all we can do now is ease the inter-OS-ability for the apps that need it (such as DB's).



Cool
 
Old 06-29-2003, 05:48 AM   #20
ricdave
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<<Discussion thread: What does Windows do better than Linux and how do we get there?>>

Microsoft is No. 3 in ease of use, reliability, just about any yardstick you want to use after Apple and Linux. Desktop oriented distros like Mandrake, SuSe, SOT, Lycoris, Xandros and I am sure there are one or two others out there are easier to install and set up than Windows. KDE has the look and feel of Windows, and usually installs as the default desktop. All of the normal productivity software comes as part of the distro. Linux should be overhauling Windows and Apple. So, why isn't it?

Windows comes with all PCs sold through normal outlets. Almost all PC users know how to use windows and see no need to change.

Business software(SOHO}is written, in most cases, exclusively for Windows. Often there is an Apple version available, but almost never a Linux version.

As polished as the current distros are, there are still config issues that a home user or SOHO user should not have to deal with. You should not have to figure out how to find, install, and configure the normal browser plugins, for instance. The only distro I am aware of that comes with 1 of everything pre-configured out of the box is Xandros. I hope they have the traction to grab and hold market share.

Why battle the vagaries of Linux when a system with all of the stability, function and power not to mention eye candy and polish you could ask for already exists. Namely Apple with OSX?

And finally, where in the Linux world are you going to find a company that can out market Microsoft?
 
Old 06-29-2003, 05:56 AM   #21
ricdave
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<<Who's goal are you talking about? I would rather have the linux distros of today and have to use some thought processes for them to work the way ' I ' want them to, than to have a dumbed down version that somebody else thinks I should use. >>

But Dell did try to market a PC with Linux. They couldn't move the product.
 
Old 06-29-2003, 06:01 AM   #22
ricdave
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<<I think for now it's just time. Linux is slowly getting to more and more desktops. Speeding that up could only come from the major PC distributors (Gateway, Dell, HP, Compaq) giving the **OPTION** to have Linux (say Mandrake) installed as the default OS, with say, OpenOffice as their Office Suite. There would have to be a few pioneers that get the ball rolling, and then eventually it would snowball into what windoze has today.>>

But Dell did try to market a PC with Linux. They couldn't move the product.
 
Old 06-29-2003, 06:08 AM   #23
MasterC
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I know, I remember reading about that. Dell alone shouldn't/can't be the only one. That's the problem. Compaq/HP, Gateway, Dell and people like www.peoplepc.com have to offer it as a choice as well. If any 1 of those companies do, they might not get very far, but as a whole, if they decide to offer, at least as a choice, Xandros or Mandrake (OT: I think Mandrake too comes with all the browser plugins) along with a 'doze EQ (XP currently IIRC) then that would probably be enough. Offer it as the default, then for "10 bucks extra" they can get XP or whatever.

I think it's pure marketing, and as mentioned above, who is able to market linux like windoze is? Redhat? Not really, not anymore than they are anyway. Bankrupt Mandrake? Probably not. Gentoo, nah. Debian, it's pure volunteer, I don't see a whole cash pot they can throw at advertisement.

Nah, no single entity in linux can offer the marketing that windoze can. Not currently. For more reasons than simply they don't want to, they don't all band together for this either. No linux is what linux is, and does what it does, and that's how things are, and will be, I think, for a while longer.



Cool
 
Old 06-29-2003, 06:25 AM   #24
invictus
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Does anyone know the story of Borland Pascal? Let's just say, the founder didn't have much to invest. In fact, he had nothing other than code. He hoodwinked a major computing magazine (I forget which) into running a full-page ad on credit. It worked, and he got the sales to become a multi-million corporation.

I'm not saying Debian should, or could, do it. However, M$ doesn't really achieve much through advertising its OS to end-users. The freshly-made ones aren't familiar with the concept of OS in the first place. They'll take whatever they get, or whatever their computer-savvy friend recommends.

I've dealt with these computer-savvy friends. Generally, it means that they know what is where in the Control Panel.

Linux should be targetting the mid-range group -- the ones who want to learn more, but don't have enough time/desire to spend weeks on end reading manpages.

Hell, if I knew a bit more, I'd write my own tutorial for Deb. In fact, I will. I figure...
1: create a partition out of some empty space.
2: the mysteries of /proc
3: Setting up a printer
4: Setting up X-server
...
955: Setting up a P&P device

Okay, maybe I'd leave the last one out

The best advertisement is word-of-mouth. The goal, in my opinion, is to start spreading the impression that Linux is not just for geeks, and that means increasing Linux's user-friendliness.

Ricdave, thank you for the tip on Xandros, I think I'll try it in a few days.
 
Old 06-29-2003, 06:35 AM   #25
MasterC
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FYI:

I've gone around to every computer in my clutches (in other words, any computer anyone has me work on ) and installed Mandrake 9.0 on it. So far I've had a few questions on how to find "My Computer" but other than that, not many people even use it, but are rather annoyed they now have to wait an additional 5 seconds before windoze will load Unless of course they press Enter.

2 of these people (complaining about the wait for windoze) are semi-savvy people. One seems VERY interested in linux, but besides the "wow, linux is amazing!" speeches, I never get a question or anything other than "I hate waiting 5 seconds before windoze will start loading".

There's no ideal target audience. Those who want to learn/use linux can/do. Those who don't, or at least not yet, won't/don't. Marketing could help ALOT with those undecided (those getting a new computer, or still in diapers in reference to computing) people buying a Dell for 500 bones, and that's where the target exists. At Dell, HP, Compaq, Gateway and similar places.

That's my take on it

Cool
 
Old 06-29-2003, 06:46 AM   #26
invictus
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Quote:
Originally posted by MasterC
One seems VERY interested in linux, but besides the "wow, linux is amazing!" speeches, I never get a question or anything other than "I hate waiting 5 seconds before windoze will start loading".
You forgot to change the default selection on load

Seriously, though, installing Mandrake on their machine isn't enough. All their files, all their settings are still under Windows. No one will willingly go through that process again, especially not if they remember their experience from setting up Windows.

Nor is any WM I know all that easy to set up the way you want it. I'm going through the usability discussion of GNOME right now. It ain't pretty.

What Linux needs (Xandros, Mandrake, whichever; the user-friendlier ones could benefit most from this) is a user-profile import tool. Batch conversion of all documents on the Windows partition. Copying of the Favorites links into Galeon. Importing Outlook Express and/or Eudora contacts into whatever the appropriate mail-reader is (sorry, I use PINE).

That sorta stuff.
 
Old 06-29-2003, 06:55 AM   #27
MasterC
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http://newsforge.com/newsforge/03/06...08.shtml?tid=3

Just found that on linux.com and thought it was worthy for this discussion.

As far as an import tool for all that (I'd say kmail, Evolution or Sylpheed would be the appropriate mail client to aim that towards ) we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot. Because with a tool like that, a user would inevitably have to learn the filesystem structure (/ /usr /home) and with a tool that imports everything like that they would sooner (IMO) get turned off to linux because of the false-sense-of-security provided to them from such a feature.

You'd gain their curiousity for 5 minutes, then drop a motherload on them they weren't ready for. So do you then hide the filesystem structure from them as well?



Cool
 
Old 06-29-2003, 07:14 AM   #28
invictus
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Quote:
Originally posted by MasterC
Just found that on linux.com and thought it was worthy for this discussion.
An excerpt from that article that I think is important:
Quote:
Now, she says, Trustix (and, by implication, other commercial Linux vendors) have developed enough GUI administration tools for Linux that management's fear of Linux making them dependent on a small group of "gurus" is going away.

Teresa describes the Trustix admin utilities as "point and click, an almost Apple-like interface." She notes that security patches and other updates updates can be "totally automatic" or can be done manually by sysadmins who have the skills to handle such things themselves and would rather have total control over their systems
Quote:
{snip} we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot. Because with a tool like that, a user would inevitably have to learn the filesystem structure (/ /usr /home) and with a tool that imports everything like that they would sooner (IMO) get turned off to linux because of the false-sense-of-security provided to them from such a feature.
I'm not seeing the connection. Am I missing something obvious? (I'm coming off a night shift, so it's quite likely)

I was thinking of a graphical tool to do the job. Have you ever seen something like ICQ's Database Updater? That sorta thing. The end-user doesn't care that the profile info ends up somewhere in /usr/local or in /home/.mozilla
All they want is that information. The import tool is the one worrying about making that info available to the appropriate program.
 
Old 06-29-2003, 07:22 AM   #29
MasterC
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I'm on my nightshift still, but I'm right there with ya, in a semi-careless stage where dream begins and day ends, all in a blur. Yeah, that's nice...

Ok, so where was I..

Ok, the user learning the filesystem:

Assuming Linux is as rock-solid as we all think it is, and that nothing ever goes wrong just like on all of our systems, then the "gui" way will work, and all the fancy tools that all the distros have provided us with (very thankful as a n00b for those). However, if one decides to install something, and this "package" happens to install into a non-standard location (such as a zip file might in windoze) then the user has to know where to go look for that file. If they open up a filemanager and see:
/
/opt
/tmp
/root
/home
/usr
and so on, they will be lost from the get go. To further that, if users are provided:
My Documents
Pointing to a directory in their home folder named similar/the same, and something gets downloaded (possibly by accident, maybe just the browser moved up a directory for some odd reason.. maybe the user double clicked something they didn't mean to) outside "My Documents" the user will have to know how to look for it. This won't be very pretty for them. Especially when targeting that mid-level windoze user. They will feel in enemy territory, drop an:
fdisk
on the whole thing, bust out win98 and pray they never see another penguin again. Now then and 10 of their friends will never use linux because he/she didn't get to see what the filesystem structure looked like before diving into an OS they weren't familiar with.



Cool
 
Old 06-29-2003, 07:58 AM   #30
XavierP
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I remember once installing a laptop for work. Just before I blew away the preinstalled software and whacked on our Ghost image I saw that there was a choice of which OS to use W2K or NT4. You choose one and the other disappears.

Why can't manufacturers do that? Boot up the laptop/pc choose WinXXX or a Linux distro - one stays and one goes. Plus you can change your mind by putting in the factory cd and returning it to it's initial state.
 
  


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