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View Poll Results: What you would vote for if you could decide outcome?
Venus project 3 50.00%
Current money driven system 0 0%
Current system but fixed(how?) 1 16.67%
Other system(details?) 2 33.33%
Voters: 6. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-19-2011, 09:00 PM   #1
Arcane
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Lightbulb Discussed voting to dismiss money driven society system


Reason why i am making this inspired thread is because this weekend in Latvia we will have first "legal" voting option to dismiss(not elect) parliament(or "saeima" as we call it) + people are boiling in local website commentaries(not mention here aswell) about life and on streets since we are in problematic country list atm and I recently re-watched Zeitgeist and if you really think about it - we are in deep s**t because we created this system that uses us not helps us live better and despite we might not like something about reality - it might be solution to our problems at same time. So please read or watch about part where The Venus Project is introduced and give your 2 cents. Personally i support this idea after going through the plot but i just am not sure on one detail - how they are going to achieve this into reality since we won't get second Earth as "second chance". Deus Ex version also fails(unless other 2 can work) because then we will start again without technology. Would be nice though however any corrections on flaws about current system or other ideas probably exist too.

Last edited by Arcane; 07-19-2011 at 09:06 PM.
 
Old 07-19-2011, 10:25 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
Deus Ex version also fails(unless other 2 can work) because then we will start again without technology.
Umm... have you actually played Deus Ex? In one of the endings protagonist merges with Helios AI in order to form a "God" (an human/ai hybrid that have control over the entire world's technology/nanomachines). Which is actually quite reasonable, if you think about it. (IMO) The only system that can reasonably advance country/humanity towards "better future" is totalitarian dictatorship IF you have a "benevolent dictator". However, because people tends to be corrupted by power, other (less efficient) systems (presidency, parlaments, elections) were introduced in order to prevent appearance of "evil" dictators. The problem is that those system are less efficient (they don't advance anything, but prevent harm from possible appearance of corrupt politician instead) than a "benevolent dictator" would have been, plus they can be bypassed (people can be easily manipulated, so...). Hence it would have been reasonable to make some kind of non-human governor for society - a "benevolent dictator" without human flaws. Unfortunately, there's a very big chance to screw up in the process and get AI/robot uprising instead.

I do not see a way to remove money from current society - it isn't possible, since not all goods are material (software does not "exist" as a material object, but it takes years to make some programs). You could aim to create better set of laws for society, though. I believe it is possible to create a set of laws that will exploit people's vices and virtues to make a society where everyone is not unhappy about their position. However, you won't be able to destroy "money" as a concept.
 
Old 07-19-2011, 10:36 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
Umm... have you actually played Deus Ex? In one of the endings protagonist merges with Helios AI in order to form a "God" (an human/ai hybrid that have control over the entire world's technology/nanomachines).{...}Unfortunately, there's a very big chance to screw up in the process and get AI/robot uprising instead.{...}
Silly question..of course i have(sometimes i think too much in past). Yes computer-human fusion carries risk of becoming robot. Same goes for Illuminati ending - they just replace "heads".
Quote:
{...}I do not see a way to remove money from current society - it isn't possible, since not all goods are material{...}However, you won't be able to destroy "money" as a concept.
Same way we created it? Just remove it. Also if you actually explored that project..it actually includes computers. Difference is - we won't be slaves for capitalism but working on enthusiam basis with access to tools we need to create stuff while not die in process. Basically same way Linux works compared to Mac or Windows. This topic affects this community too since people here use computers too besides they are humans who will have children or has already.
 
Old 07-19-2011, 10:58 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
Silly question..of course i have(sometimes i think too much in past).
Not a silly question. The game has been created 11 years ago, so there are many people that haven't even heard about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
Same way we created it? Just remove it.
I do not see this happening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
Also if you actually explored that project..
You know, you could copy central ideas of the project into this thread. I read through wikipedia page, and it sounds like an another "doomed to fail" utopia to me (plus resembles communism, if you think about it).

Quote:
In a resource-based economy, resources are allocated into the goods and services in consumer demand, based on factors of availability, sustainability and technological advancement. The role of money would be phased out, instead central computers serve a lineup of goods and services (see Star network), which citizens may order upon demand; central computers serve the lineup of goods based on sustainability and the latest in technological advancement; obsolete, unwanted, or unused goods would be recycled, reduced and/or reused, resource waste is a burden the system must eliminate to function efficiently.
  • Let's say I want something that does not exist. With money-driven system I can buy it. I.e. I can convert my labor/ideas into cash, and pay somebody to create item I want. Please note, that I do not necessarily have to work myself, I have a chance of building another business that'll make employees fed, make customers happy (by providing service), and supply me with cash as a reward for coming up with creative idea or finding a "niche" no one covered. As far as I can tell, everybody wins. With your system I won't get what I want.
  • Another problem is that people are greedy. Money effectively limits amount of stuff you can hoard. If you want more stuff, you have to work harder or invent a way to get more cash.
  • And yet another problem is that people enjoy scarcity - it feels great to possess an item nobody else has. That's the reason collectors exist.
  • Who is going to handle entertainment industry in that "utopic" society?

In other words, the idea of money is actually quite good. However, there should be a way to prevent people in control from "breaking" a system by printing as much cash as they want.

(IMO) Idea of computer networks that build required goods on demand is great, but without concept of money it will fail.
 
Old 07-19-2011, 11:26 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
Not a silly question. The game has been created 11 years ago, so there are many people that haven't even heard about it.{...}
Ok fair enough but..i am not recently registered + since i can vote i'm legal age so no way i wouldn't be at least tried it if i mention it.
Quote:
{...}I do not see this happening.{...}
Because noone is interested in it..rich people don't want become equal.
Quote:
{...}You know, you could copy central ideas of the project into this thread. I read through wikipedia page, and it sounds like an another "doomed to fail" utopia to me (plus resembles communism, if you think about it).{...}
Wikipedia in this case fails to show what they really meant - in video they cover all this deeper and to be honest if you are interested in arguing you should watch it.
Quote:
[*]Let's say I want something that does not exist. With money-driven system I can buy it. I.e. I can convert my labor/ideas into cash, and pay somebody to create item I want. Please note, that I do not necessarily have to work myself, I have a chance of building another business that'll make employees fed, make customers happy (by providing service), and supply me with cash as a reward for coming up with creative idea or finding a "niche" no one covered. As far as I can tell, everybody wins. With your system I won't get what I want.
Wow! Not my system and they don't deny new stuff.
Quote:
[*]Another problem is that people are greedy. Money effectively limits amount of stuff you can hoard. If you want more stuff, you have to work harder or invent a way to get more cash.
Ok i have explored other materials including books aswell about this so not only from this movie view and guess what? It is false statement - we are greedy because we live in environment where greed exists but we born innocent and same. If we lived equally and had basic needs covered we won't need become hostile.
Quote:
[*]And yet another problem is that people enjoy scarcity - it feels great to possess an item nobody else has. That's the reason collectors exist.
Oh really? Truth is - if you are not rich to demand from manufacturer only 1 piece of that thing or make it yourself then it is not possible to work this way. They need produce more examples for market to work. Money requires damaged and multiple pieces of production.
Quote:
[*]Who is going to handle entertainment industry in that "utopic" society?
Noone said this would stop existing..again watch video.
Quote:
{...}In other words, the idea of money is actually quite good. However, there should be a way to prevent people in control from "breaking" a system by printing as much cash as they want.{...}
Can't disagree on this one. Money original idea as handy trading tool is working but look at it nowadays? They worship it + people suffer from it.
Quote:
{...}(IMO) Idea of computer networks that build required goods on demand is great, but without concept of money it will fail.
Maybe, maybe not but if it would work and we didn't atleast tried it? Don't you think we will regret it more than just doing nothing?

Last edited by Arcane; 07-19-2011 at 11:30 PM.
 
Old 07-19-2011, 11:46 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
again watch video.
I'll think about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
They worship it
I'd say it is their own problem with their own head/twisted priorities. Money is a tool, and worshiping a tool is kinda stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
Maybe, maybe not but if it would work and we didn't atleast tried it? Don't you think we will regret it more than just doing nothing?
IMO, you should check history of USSR (there were a comic about the subject, although if you're in latvia, you should be familiar with it to some extend). People wanted to build communism and wasted roughly 80 years trying to build better future. That's approximately 2 or 3 generations. They failed, and as a result they got a generation of old people that has been "cheated" by their government and didn't get "future" they wanted. As a result I wouldn't want to live in society that tries to "build better future" - because history may repeat itself, and "building better future" may fail. Once they build working model and get rid of all bugs, we'll talk. Also "money" is a very old concept and I'll be surprised if anybody will be able to build society that doesn't need it. It is quite easy to get a "change the world" idea, fail to implement and get horrible consequences.
 
Old 07-20-2011, 12:13 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
  • Let's say I want something that does not exist. With money-driven system I can buy it. I.e. I can convert my labor/ideas into cash, and pay somebody to create item I want. Please note, that I do not necessarily have to work myself, I have a chance of building another business that'll make employees fed, make customers happy (by providing service), and supply me with cash as a reward for coming up with creative idea or finding a "niche" no one covered. As far as I can tell, everybody wins. With your system I won't get what I want.
  • Another problem is that people are greedy. Money effectively limits amount of stuff you can hoard. If you want more stuff, you have to work harder or invent a way to get more cash.
  • ...

In other words, the idea of money is actually quite good. However, there should be a way to prevent people in control from "breaking" a system by printing as much cash as they want.
Money is undoubtedly convenient as a means of exchange but the current way of creating money also creates unnecessary problems as explained in Money is Debt. The few periods in history when the money system effectively created negative interest rates were some of the most economically progressive, such as the period of cathedral building in Medieval Europe -- a period preceded and followed by sluggish economies.
 
Old 07-20-2011, 02:02 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
{...}IMO, you should check history of USSR (there were a comic about the subject, although if you're in Latvia, you should be familiar with it to some extend). People wanted to build communism and wasted roughly 80 years trying to build better future. That's approximately 2 or 3 generations. They failed{...}
This is common problem. Most people who haven't been in touch with communism think it is about same idea..well it's not. Yes you don't need speak about me about USSR since in here older people still exist plus even if people like me touched ending of that period older people like parents or neighbours can say lot of real way communism rolled. It was not about liberty free from money but controled liberty which is nonsence - communism was like religion "Someone wants you to do this and that and you will be happy because that someone said so!" otherwise they got punished for going against system(lot of intelligent people were killed and abused). Sound familiar(religion)? Venus project however doesn't aim that way so stop comparing. There are lot of stuff i could write but we live in internet age so just visit same uploader section or google and see for example this video about common objections. And yes it's not about forcing this idea to people but it is about forcing people stop and look around for second. Does this is really how we are supposed to live if we are intelligent beeings who can by now use our knowledge to free ourselves from nonsence and provide good life? Of course believing that same project would be flawless in execution would be naive but still - it still is better solution for humans and if more people would step in the less flaws there would be left to fix. We need to start change something sometime somehow anyway if we want to continue exist cause current hunger for more and more will just bring us to dead end since like it or not - resources will come to end at this rate of consumption. Ok if you live in places like USA or RUS you won't care probably but that is another point of movie - people should start care about others not just ourselves.
Quote:
{...}Money is a tool, and worshiping a tool is kinda stupid.{...}
You would be amazed how many people earn money on this "stupidity". It also mentioned in Zeitgeist(you should still watch all of them) that people are so much manipulated by brands and ads that even when something totally useless(like golden toilet, light bulbs with IP adress built in etc.) for their lifes will be created and selled for nice cash they will buy it without second guessing or questioning it even if it can be recreated for less money or at home.

Last edited by Arcane; 07-20-2011 at 02:15 AM.
 
Old 08-10-2011, 07:05 AM   #9
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Ok here is another interesting movie "The Light Bulb Conspiracy" outside Zeitgeist idea about our "economy".
http://vimeo.com/26859312
 
Old 08-10-2011, 08:51 AM   #10
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Thanks for the Zeitgeist Movement objections video, Arcane -- it made a lot of sense.
 
Old 08-10-2011, 03:05 PM   #11
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I have just read about the Venus project, and I don't like it. It is similar to what the Illuminati are already planning: getting rid of real money and instead using only numbers in a computer system, the mandatory clean green renewable energy BS (so they can make sure they can tax everything to death).

I agree that money must be gotten rid of as it is the main problem with society, the second main problem being the people that print it. I recommend a tab or barter based system. Whatever the solution the following must be true:

1) No third parties (no feds)
2) No middle men (banks)
3) No conversion of goods to arbitrary unit value (money)

Due to the complexity of the system that must be implemented, a computing solution will be required, so:

4) The computing system must run FLOSS (not M$ or proprietary) and it must be as secure as possible.

Last edited by H_TeXMeX_H; 08-10-2011 at 03:06 PM.
 
Old 08-10-2011, 03:08 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
1) No third parties (no feds)
2) No middle men (banks)
3) No conversion of goods to arbitrary unit value (money)

Due to the complexity of the system that must be implemented, a computing solution will be required, so:

4) The computing system must run FLOSS (not M$ or proprietary) and it must be as secure as possible.
Let's just nuke the planet. Result will be identical to implementing such system.
 
Old 08-10-2011, 03:11 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
Let's just nuke the planet. Result will be identical to implementing such system.
That statement requires further explanation.
 
Old 08-10-2011, 03:39 PM   #14
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That statement requires further explanation.
Imagine following situation (extremely simplified).

You have a country. There is a mining region (ore/stone), oil-producing region, grain producing region, food producing region, food factory , polymer factory, chip plant, science research center, several power plants, multiple schools and universities, several prisons, nation-wide computer network, multiple software companies, etc - in other word, country is completely self-sufficient (Doesn't work this way in real life). Everything requires product made by everything else, and everything require people to work, and every region is far away from each other. I.e. you can't grow crops very successfully in mining region, and there's no oil in farm region. Now. How are you going to keep this huge thing running without money? How are you going to prevent people from dying or going back to stone age if you remove concept of money? Why would anybody want to deliver food to miners that are few thousands of miles away? Why would anybody want to work?

"No money" society could have worked for a small village in ancient ages when goods were material, weapons were wood+stone, everybody was hunter, farmer or a craftsman and all necessary materials could be found nearby. However I don't see how you could make it work in modern society. You can't trade software for food, because software does not exist as a limited material object. You can't compose music for food, write book for food, etc. Production of your cellphone alone involves multiple industries. Remove money, and there are three ways - invent money again, go back to stone age or everybody dies.

All your "no money" ideas remind me of Cambodia/Kampuchea ("Currency: none, as money was abolished"). If you believe in them, build a successful country based on them, then we'll talk.

Last edited by SigTerm; 08-10-2011 at 03:41 PM.
 
Old 08-10-2011, 04:58 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
"No money" society could have worked for a small village in ancient ages when goods were material, weapons were wood+stone, everybody was hunter, farmer or a craftsman and all necessary materials could be found nearby. However I don't see how you could make it work in modern society. You can't trade software for food, because software does not exist as a limited material object. You can't compose music for food, write book for food, etc. Production of your cellphone alone involves multiple industries. Remove money, and there are three ways - invent money again, go back to stone age or everybody dies.
I think you are wrong. Money has not been around for as long as you think. Certainly it did NOT move people from the stone age to the civilized age, like you seem to think. I doubt I will convince you tho, so I won't try.

You are right, of course, that direct trading like software for food, will not work. I mean, what if I'm a farmer and don't need software. That's where the computer-based system comes in. I think it should be an online market, but not one like it is today where everything is converted into a currency first. Say that I am a farmer and I want to purchase a car. In a direct trading system I would trade an amount of wheat or corn for the car. However, the car manufacturer doesn't need this, instead they need steel. Of course it can't trade that corn to the steel mill, because they don't need it either. However, someone somewhere needs it, and that someone also produces something, even if it is just software. The solution of money solves this by creating an arbitrary unit into which everything can be converted, and is converted. The solution would be good, if it were not for the banks, middle men, feds, etc. However, I think that they cannot be gotten rid of. If you know of a way, do tell. So, instead of using money, the computerized market system will route goods to where they are needed, so that they arrive unspoiled, on time, etc. It will obviously have to calculate the value of goods based on supply and demand, but it will be only with respect to other goods. With money, it isn't like this. Why ? Because money itself has a value, and that is not based on much. It used to be based on gold, which was in limited supply, but today not anymore. So, they can print as much money as they want, and cause well ... the status quo.

I don't expect the system to be simple to implement, but I think it is possible to get rid of money.

Last edited by H_TeXMeX_H; 08-10-2011 at 04:59 PM.
 
  


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