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Old 01-22-2012, 08:01 PM   #16
k3lt01
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It's quite interesting reading some of your posts Alan. I doubt we would agree on much but the way you write indicates alot of thought has gone into it.
 
Old 01-22-2012, 09:00 PM   #17
frankbell
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I have been watching the US NFL football championship games today.

After seeing the adverts for upcoming movies, I shall find boycotting them quite painless.

If the entertainment industry is concerned about lost revenue, perhaps it should stop blaming bittorrent and start producing stuff that's more than a glorified plotless CGI cartoon.

Sheesh.
 
Old 01-23-2012, 04:55 AM   #18
hughetorrance
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The internet was created by good hearted intelligent folks,I mean I got my first domain name for free,then an evil ISP I was on tried to sell it to me... so I cursed them and left.

I agree with H_TeXMeX_H its up to each of us to resist in our own way according to our abilities and conviction... I hate these greedy good for nothing skumbags.
 
Old 01-23-2012, 05:57 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
the [government] black ops group known as Anonymous. Their tactics will lead to further rights restrictions and new draconian legislation. Peaceful protest is the only way to achieve anything.
Or maybe that's what they want you to think...?

What you're effectively saying is that anonymous should stop because they're making hackers or those against SOPA/PIPA look bad and leading to the passing of more acts like SOPA? Almost every protest, ever since the advent of mass media has made protesters look bad, because the media companies have done their damnedest to make sure of it. If there is a "peaceful protest" of 10,000 people and 50 yobs who just turned up to trash some shops, loot and fight the police, the media will be there filming the yobs. If there is a peaceful protest with no yobs present, the media will focus on those seen to be laughing and joking or dressed in an eccentric manner. A protest goes on for hours, possibly days, the media shows you a few seconds in a news reel.

Your next inferred argument is that because anon are perceived to be feeding such legislation rather than preventing it that they must be "government black ops". The issue there is that if people start to think that groups like anon are "black ops", they will start to lose support and the public's sympathy with these "hacktivist" groups as a whole will be diminished - which plays right into the hands of the government - and of course their bedfellows the big media corporations.

In my opinion it doesn't matter whether anon are the real thing or not - we will probably never know. Whatever they do, the media and the administration will focus on their perceived bad points. If anon hit a big corporation's website, the media will focus on the details of the ordinary people who had accounts there. If anon DDoS e.g. a credit card company, the media will focus on the effect on "the customers". The real problem is quite simply fat cats losing money, but that will be hidden behind the scenes with preference given to the "inconvenience to our customers"...

You know... I can't actually remember a "peaceful protest" achieving much... ever?

Look at the protests against the 2003 Iraq War: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Februa...ti-war_protest

Now compare that to the Arab Spring, where people took up arms in an attempt to overthrow dictators: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_spring

Compare it also to strike action - where an oppressed work force withholds it's labour in the pursuit of better conditions and pay. If those same workers had restricted their activities to turning up on Saturday morning before lunch with their placards simply chanting, workers would still be "enjoying" industrial revolution pay and conditions... Strike action worked because it hit the big businesses where it hurts: in the pocket. In short without some real incentives for change the status quo prevails.

Insurrections, rebellions and insurgencies worked historically because they hit the oppressive, dictatorial regime in the only way they would understand it.

Now I would like to see how a "peaceful internet based protest" works.

Last edited by cynwulf; 01-23-2012 at 06:00 AM.
 
Old 01-23-2012, 06:40 AM   #20
cascade9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
This means:
Do NOT buy any movies with the MPAA logo on them (nearly all)
Do NOT buy any audio CDs with the RIAA logo on them (nearly all)
Do NOT rent movies.
Do NOT buy anything DRM'd.
Cancel your cable and satellite subscription.
Cancel any service that is associated with the MPAA/RIAA.
Do NOT support anything associated with the MPAA/RIAA.
Lots of 'do not buys', I guess I know what your megaupload premium account was used for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
This is *$**$ %*(#$%&*. I had a premimum account

%$*#&^(*%&^(*#%$& !!!
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...rested-924657/

Do not buy, isnt going anywhere near far enough IMO. Not buying isnt going to change much, unless you can get a very large percentage of the population to go along with you (doubtful). Even if that happened, we would probably end up with RIAA/MPAA screaming even louder that 'due to piracy we are losing $XXXXXXXX, its got to be cracked down on even harder!'.

DO BUY from people who are independant of RIAA/MPAA, or better active in fight against RIAA/MPAA, DRM and the like. That will keep sales going, making the likely RIAA/MPAA 'we have to crack down even harder' response less likely. Added bonus, it would show RIAA/MPAA we dont want the dross....er....'products' they make.

Go to places like this to get some music-

http://www.nettwerk.com/

Also, +1 to a lot of you, in particular-
k3lt01- Totally valid point, using "gubmint" shows no respect at all. While some governments might not diserve respect, teating them without respect does the idea being put forward no favours.
caravel- That said what I was thinking, saved me doing a much worse job of putting forward the idea you did.

To put my own spin on it- the whole 'boycott' idea is the state sanctioned way of dealing with the 'problem'. If the colonies had only tried petitioning the crown or parliment in 1776 you would have a different date for the breaking away of the Thirteen Colonies....if it happened at all.
 
Old 01-23-2012, 07:02 AM   #21
rsciw
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http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/n...box-office.ars
Makes ye wonder where all their loss is in the first place
 
Old 01-23-2012, 07:17 AM   #22
Cedrik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsciw View Post
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/n...box-office.ars
Makes ye wonder where all their loss is in the first place
It is their estimated loss, eg virtual money loss, eg somewhat non existent loss.

The flawed logic imo is thinking one download = one lost sale
 
Old 01-23-2012, 08:08 AM   #23
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k3lt01 View Post
This is a very important thing, what do anyone's actions prove? What are you proving? You have shown time and again you cannot (or is it will not) reason like an adult, you have shown time and again that you cannot (or is it will not) discuss things without resorting to a silly and childish usage of words. You have shown you hate governments (you can't even type the word properly because of your contempt for the institution). What does this prove? It proves to anyone who wants to discuss things like this that you are either a troll or just someone who wants their 15MB of fame. It is really about time that you actually did something instead of just hopping onto forums and writing about how bad everyone else is.
Which is an ad hominem argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade9 View Post
k3lt01- Totally valid point, using "gubmint" shows no respect at all. While some governments might not diserve respect, teating them without respect does the idea being put forward no favours.
I have to say that I don't think the spelling/slang used by the OP is at all relevant to this debate or even an issue. There are other points far more worthy of challenge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedrik View Post
It is their estimated loss, eg virtual money loss, eg somewhat non existent loss.

The flawed logic imo is thinking one download = one lost sale
It's common policy/practice and perhaps made famous (infamous?) by Microsoft.

Last edited by cynwulf; 01-23-2012 at 08:11 AM.
 
Old 01-23-2012, 11:49 AM   #24
Telengard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsciw View Post
I don't know, but

Quote:
Pisaro concludes with the familiar, tired mantra, "It's impossible to compete with free."
is a false assertion. It most definitely is possible to compete with free. Just offer a superior service. It isn't hard to beat the quality of most of the crappy cams that end up on p2p networks. Most of them have poor picture quality, and terrible sound. I'd much rather watch a legitimate stream, or even rent a disc, for a satisfying viewing experience. As for going to the cinema ... well ... that's just not very fun for me.

Some may not be aware that Youtube offers legitimate streams for many movies and television shows. (I don't know whether they are available to users outside North America, but that's a separate issue.) Just browsing through the Free Movies and Classic TV sections, I see a great deal to keep me occupied.
 
Old 01-23-2012, 12:32 PM   #25
k3lt01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caravel View Post
Which is an ad hominem argument.
Not really, in common law it would show H_Tex as an unstable, unreliable and hostile witness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caravel View Post
I have to say that I don't think the spelling/slang used by the OP is at all relevant to this debate or even an issue. There are other points far more worthy of challenge.
Never go down to the lowest common denominator in a discussion, if you are ripping at others never give them anything to show your at the same level. This is not just a spelling mistake it is a deliberate action by someone who shows a massive amount of disdain for anything governmental. Instead of acting in a childish manner he should in actual fact give options (not like don't buy) that the governments could use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caravel View Post
It's common policy/practice and perhaps made famous (infamous?) by Microsoft.
It has been common policy for years (circa 12th-13th centuries), way before MS was even a pipe dream. Economics depends on profit and loss, if you haven't made as much money as you did last year or as much as you predicted you would you have to show a loss somehow. This has been going on since before the beginning of the capitalist system and stock markets.

Last edited by k3lt01; 01-23-2012 at 12:35 PM.
 
Old 01-23-2012, 01:43 PM   #26
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k3lt01 View Post
Not really, in common law it would show H_Tex as an unstable, unreliable and hostile witness.
This is not a court of law, it's a forum and your post was what amounts to "playing the man rather than the ball".

Quote:
Originally Posted by k3lt01 View Post
Never go down to the lowest common denominator in a discussion, if you are ripping at others never give them anything to show your at the same level. This is not just a spelling mistake it is a deliberate action by someone who shows a massive amount of disdain for anything governmental. Instead of acting in a childish manner he should in actual fact give options (not like don't buy) that the governments could use.
No one was ripping at anyone as far as I can see until you joined the discussion with:

Quote:
Originally Posted by k3lt01 View Post
I can't help but think no government would take you seriously unless you can show them you are actually able to spell government. This "gubmint" bit that you go on with lowers the standard of your politically motivated posts. It is saying to the masses, and also the governments, that you are either uneducated (which apparently, by your own admission, you're not), or simply someone who couldn't care about doing things the right way. I can totally understand spelling mistakes (I myself am not a brilliant speller) but seriously what person would follow your lead when you talk (write) like a 5 year old.
If someone wants to show disdain for government and spell government "gubmint" that's up to them. It's what's loosely referred to as "freedom of speech". As to how he appears to others or comes across, railing against someone for their spelling/slang in this pedantic fashion reflects much more poorly on yourself than it does on them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by k3lt01 View Post
It has been common policy for years (circa 12th-13th centuries), way before MS was even a pipe dream. Economics depends on profit and loss, if you haven't made as much money as you did last year or as much as you predicted you would you have to show a loss somehow. This has been going on since before the beginning of the capitalist system and stock markets.
Talk about missing the point...

No one was talking about profit and loss, but MS and other media corporations equating downloads to lost sales - despite not actually making losses.
 
Old 01-23-2012, 02:39 PM   #27
k3lt01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caravel View Post
Talk about missing the point...
Sorry but it is you who has missed the point with the point of my posting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caravel View Post
This is not a court of law, it's a forum and your post was what amounts to "playing the man rather than the ball".
So therefore nothing H_Tex says here is worth anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caravel View Post
No one was ripping at anyone as far as I can see until you joined the discussion with:
Um how do you figure that? I am pointing out the flaws in H_Tex's method, if he (or you) doesn't like that then I can't help it, but while people claim the higher ground and behave in a manner that lowers their appearance they are doing themselves, and their message, a disservice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caravel View Post
If someone wants to show disdain for government and spell government "gubmint" that's up to them. It's what's loosely referred to as "freedom of speech". As to how he appears to others or comes across, railing against someone for their spelling/slang in this pedantic fashion reflects much more poorly on yourself than it does on them.
I haven't railed against anyone and if I have then it is the same you are doing now to me and what he is doing with nearly everything he discusses. You can't have it both ways Caravel, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caravel View Post
Talk about missing the point...
Again it is you who has missed the point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caravel View Post
No one was talking about profit and loss, but MS and other media corporations equating downloads to lost sales - despite not actually making losses.
It is all part of the business model and has been for 900 years, MS did not make it (in)famous. Point is someone does something so someone else says its taking away from me so I am losing even though I have spent all this money. It is money they never had but they felt they had the potential to earn if it was not for outside interference.
 
Old 01-23-2012, 05:11 PM   #28
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k3lt01 View Post
So therefore nothing H_Tex says here is worth anything.
You're seriously clutching at straws here... I still don't see how your ad hominem posts in this thread are justifiable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by k3lt01 View Post
Um how do you figure that? I am pointing out the flaws in H_Tex's method, if he (or you) doesn't like that then I can't help it, but while people claim the higher ground and behave in a manner that lowers their appearance they are doing themselves, and their message, a disservice.
No you're attempting to point out the flaws in the poster not the method. When you attack someone as "childish", attack their use of language or delivery, you're attacking the poster - you're not intelligently taking on their argument. In fact you're almost certainy taking "the higher ground" and doing yourself and your message a disservice, if you are going to nit pick over spelling...

Quote:
Originally Posted by k3lt01 View Post
I haven't railed against anyone and if I have then it is the same you are doing now to me and what he is doing with nearly everything he discusses. You can't have it both ways Caravel, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
I haven't used a personal attack, debasing words such as "childish" nor picked fault in another posters spelling or delivery of their post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by k3lt01 View Post
Again it is you who has missed the point.
I'm fairly certain that it will not be possible to convince you otherwise, so let's leave it at that: Agree to disagree? I'm done with the thread anyway.

Last edited by cynwulf; 01-23-2012 at 05:14 PM.
 
Old 01-23-2012, 06:12 PM   #29
k3lt01
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@ Caravel, your entire post just did what you say I'm doing to H_Tex. Well done!

Quote:
Originally Posted by caravel View Post
I'm fairly certain that it will not be possible to convince you otherwise, so let's leave it at that: Agree to disagree?
So you expect me just to stop because you say "so lets leave it at that", sorry Caravel it doesn't work that way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by caravel View Post
I'm done with the thread anyway.
Regardless of your intentions in this thread I will take my right of reply to you.

Just because you interpret my actions one way does not mean my intent was what you think it was. I will comment, just like you have, on posting styles if I wish to. If I choose to call a posting style as childish then so be it if you choose to take it as though I am saying the poster of that style is childish then the problem is yours not mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caravel View Post
You're seriously clutching at straws here... I still don't see how your ad hominem posts in this thread are justifiable.
Am I? So how does asking H_Tex a question become offensive to you? Asking pertinent questions of someone who continuously posts as a cyber activist is my justification. He claims other groups are "black ops", he claims they do nothing for the cause so I ask a relevant question about what he is doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caravel View Post
No you're attempting to point out the flaws in the poster not the method. When you attack someone as "childish", attack their use of language or delivery, you're attacking the poster - you're not intelligently taking on their argument.
So you didn't see me asking him what is he doing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by caravel View Post
In fact you're almost certainy taking "the higher ground" and doing yourself and your message a disservice, if you are going to nit pick over spelling...
Nit picking? Hmmm, I made a post a few days ago and yesterday you come in and get going on it. I like how your using my words against me, well done. Problem is you are taking my discussion and twisting its intent to suit your purpose. I asked H_TEx a pertinent question about his style and approach you however haven't asked anything pertinent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caravel View Post
I haven't used a personal attack, debasing words such as "childish" nor picked fault in another posters spelling or delivery of their post.
Haven't you? so why then are you arguing with me? What is your point here? If discussing the posters style is offensive to you why are you doing it? Let H_Tex answer a very simple question about his style and reasons for posting the way he does. Let H_Tex offer relevant evidence so we can understand his reasoning. That way other people might get an understanding of why he posts the things he does and why he posts the way he does.

If you wish we can continue this further, you can PM me anytime you like and we can discuss posting styles and their merits in private.
 
Old 01-24-2012, 12:08 AM   #30
cascade9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caravel View Post
Which is an ad hominem argument.
In some ways, yes, but there is a bit of history between k3lt01 and H_TeXMeX_H.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caravel View Post
I have to say that I don't think the spelling/slang used by the OP is at all relevant to this debate or even an issue. There are other points far more worthy of challenge.
I'd disagree. It doesnt make the point H_TeXMeX_H is trying to make useless, but it does reduce the quality of the arguement IMO. Still, its not worth pulling the daggers out over terminology.....besides being pointless, it reduces the quality of the whole thread. Comon caravel and k3lt01, you're both better posters and thinkers than that. Degrading into mud slinging and 'who said what to who' isnt really going to do much but derail what could still be an interesting discussion and exchange of points of view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsciw View Post
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/n...box-office.ars
Makes ye wonder where all their loss is in the first place
I'd prefer to see investment/profit ratio and ROI (rate of return) rather than straight takings. Point though, its not like the box office is dropping...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedrik View Post
It is their estimated loss, eg virtual money loss, eg somewhat non existent loss.

The flawed logic imo is thinking one download = one lost sale
IMO the one download = one lost sale is something that RIAA/MPAA should know isnt true, or is at least debatable. No doubt they do use that logic though, at least in public, even if they know, or at least suspect that its not really true.

SOPA/PIPA is far more complex and far-reaching than just MPAA/RIAA materials. Even in the basic outline you will see 'counterfeit goods', and in some ways that is a bigger target than online 'piracy'. SOPA/PIPA is a 'big stick' that could (will, almost certainly) have effects on online activities far outside the 'piracy' area.
 
  


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