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Old 07-14-2011, 11:09 PM   #1276
jonyo
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well y'all can bash, mock, ridicule micro all ya like, they ain't foolin around and certainly have experts on it

here's a link i've seen just recently
http://counter.li.org/

few others
http://mybroadband.co.za/news/softwa...r-is-over.html

http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000575.htm

http://www.michaelhorowitz.com/Linux.vs.Windows.html

Last edited by jonyo; 07-14-2011 at 11:21 PM.
 
Old 07-14-2011, 11:09 PM   #1277
dalek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
I've been hearing this for a several years, and, frankly, results are still very unimpressive, besides for some reason you're very selective about statistics you present (supercomputers vs desktop). Yes, it is good for supercomputers and custom solutions, but that's standard niche for unix-likes (including BSD), which doesn't concern most people.

When I'll see linux on computers in shops, internet cafes and in workplaces, then there will be a reason to talk about popularity. Right it is possible to encounter linux KERNEL (just kernel, not "GNU/Linux operating system") on android devices, stripped down linux within a certain routers/modems, and that's about it. Linux desktops are extremely rare.

I'm done here.
As long as M$ does the way it has done, it will be this way for a while. It will just take time for it to spread and it will be slow. Just think about the way M$ does things and the money they spend on marketing. That is hard to overcome.

If I could get on every news show and show fake videos, pictures and spend a lot of money saying that you are a axe murderer, eventually people will believe it. If you don't have the money to refute the story, then you are in trouble. M$ does the same with their marketing and they spend a LOT of money to do it.

I do wish several of the Linux distros could get together and fund a few commercials. I don't mean just in the USA either. If they could have some in the USA, some in Europe and some in other countries then maybe things would change. The thing is, it would have to be about a distro that is easy to install and easy to maintain. Gentoo fails on the first point but may could make it on the second point. Mandriva I think would be good on the first point but fail on the second one, at least from my experience anyway. I'm not sure what distro I would want to be on the commercial and I think that is some of the problem. That said, I wouldn't want it to be just one distro for Linux either.

I even think about all the poorer countries that could benefit from this.

 
Old 07-14-2011, 11:23 PM   #1278
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Originally Posted by dalek View Post

I even think about all the poorer countries that could benefit from this.

they benefit greatly from a ~ 100 meg pup and are certainly tuned in there
 
Old 07-14-2011, 11:29 PM   #1279
dalek
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Originally Posted by jonyo View Post
they benefit greatly from a ~ 100 meg pup and are certainly tuned in there
I'm glad they are. I just think about all the ones that don't know about Linux and are either stuck with M$ or because of the OS increased cost they can't afford a computer at all. Then there are some where a older computer may not be able to run M$ because of it being outdated. I know if I had a older rig, I would rather have Fluxbox than a really slow M$.

 
Old 07-14-2011, 11:56 PM   #1280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalek View Post
I'm glad they are. I just think about all the ones that don't know about Linux and are either stuck with M$ or because of the OS increased cost they can't afford a computer at all. Then there are some where a older computer may not be able to run M$ because of it being outdated. I know if I had a older rig, I would rather have Fluxbox than a really slow M$.

again the beauty of a free low 100 meg d/load OS not requiring other supporting software to run on the net, for folks with little to no spare cash able to use pute's that are useless with win and dumped out by the truckloads

seen plenty of real stories in the pup forums from folks around the world scrounging for throwaways and or bits, thrilled to get a modem connection

anyone have any thoughts on pups rankings at DW ?

prob has alot to do with covering that low end area exceedingly well and a big demand for it

is there anything else out there in the very light meg area now that dsl is not active? i'm not up on the vlm stuff out there now at all

Last edited by jonyo; 07-14-2011 at 11:58 PM.
 
Old 07-15-2011, 12:45 AM   #1281
SigTerm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonyo View Post
again the beauty of a free low 100 meg d/load OS
You shouldn't assume that entire world has a broadband connection with unlimited traffic plan. Situation is better than it was 6..7 years ago, but still, one of the weak points of linux is that it pretty much requires internet connection with unlimited amount of traffic - updates, external repositories, downloading packages, getting support, googling, etc. Getting even 100 MB can be a lot of fun, say, if you're using GPRS for internet access. Things get hilarious when in order to access internet you need to download software package from the internet (such as pptpclient) simply because said package wasn't included on installation disk.

Last edited by SigTerm; 07-15-2011 at 12:46 AM.
 
Old 07-15-2011, 01:11 AM   #1282
dalek
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This is all true. Thing about Linux is this, you can download it once and give copies away for free and it be legal. Try that with M$. So, if you download Pup or some other distro, you can install that on 50 machines.

I do agree that in some places, even getting a internet connection is hard to do. That would be when a program that can resume comes in handy or being able to send the CDs around to folks that just want a puter that works. Start the download and if it loses its connection, just reconnect and resume. I used to do that with my old dial-up ISP. It had a 8 hour connect limit. At about 7 hours or so, I would pause the download, disconnect from the ISP, reconnect again to restart the timer then resume my download. It is a pain but it works.

I have found that distrowatch doesn't really show anything but who can find the site and click on a link. It doesn't mean they are using or going to use any distro or even Linux at all. Even the Linux counter doesn't really mean anything. Even tho M$ sells its product, even they don't really know how many computers have their OS installed.

 
Old 07-15-2011, 02:11 AM   #1283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonyo View Post
some folks call it a war and linux is losing, they also say that distro's are at war with each other
I hope that is not the case, because such a mentality will lead to Linux developers catering to Windows users...which will in turn lead to Linux distros becoming more like Windows (which is already happening with some distros- complete with bloat and all)

I should rather hope that the sensible developers/contributors and users will only care that Linux does what they need it to do, and does it well...and offers an alternative for those who are like-minded.

If the goal is to compete with Windows/Mac...what's the point? Anyone can make a crappy OS. But we don't need more crappy OS's...we came to Linux because of what it is and because it is different than the other products. As long as it's there for those who want it....it has won. No...WE have won!

The war scenario reminds me of Ebay. Ebay was once a great site, that was unique and had no competition, and was wildly successful. One day a new CEO decided that Ebay needed to compete with Amazon...so they went into competition with Amazon...tried to be more like Amazon...and vied for Amazon's customers. Now Ebay has become a joke- I ceased selling there three years ago. They can't do what Amazon does as good as Amazon does it; they've alienated all their own customers who once loved them; and they've put themselves in competition with a giant, and are losing badly...whereas before, they had no competition...but they chose to go after Goliath...but they ain't no David!



Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
Which is a big problem, actually. Time is expensive, and OS is meant to aid you in your tasks instead of stealing all your time for trying extra options and configuring it. If you're a computer enthusiasts and linux is your hobby, it is one thing, but if you simply want to get the job done, then it might be more efficient to spend your cash instead of your time (and it certain situations it might actually make sense to pay somebody for setting up OS, so you'll have extra time for more important things). Nothing is free - you always pay for OS you get, either with cash, or with your time, and frequently, time costs more. IMO, you should keep that in mind.

But I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumguy View Post

Funny- I like Linux because I can have a distro that doesn't require constant updates (maybe Gentoo isn't for me) and doesn't require maintenance and constant tinkering with, and just allows me to use my computer and do what I have to do...but on the other hand, there are so many interesting distros out there; and it can be fun tinkering with Linux and learning and exploring new capabilities (when done by choice, not necessity) that I just want to mess with some other distros just for the sheer fun of it and the learning experience.
I waste half my day fooling with email and surfing the net, and Linux allows me to do that while the OS remains invisible and just lets me do what I want. It also allows me to do my work without interference [the main reason I switched to Linux- because Windows was becoming a hinderence, and was making my work tedious and stressful]...but also allows me to have fun with the OS when I want to, by playing with configuration and learning new things.

With Windows, all my time spent messing with the OS was not for entertainment/fun, but rather to correct problems- and it was a PAIN; did not terach me anything (except how to fix that particular problem) and was not productive...as often the problem would not even get completely fixed...it seemed the goal more often than not was to just get back to "functional"; The idea of making it work like it used to, was often not practical or possible- so with Windows my time was spent (by necessity not choice) just fixing things that shouldn't have broken- which is why I say Linux has made me much more productive- as I rarely have a problem with Linux...and when I mess with the OS, it IS usually for fun. (There was nothing fun about messing with Windows....Windows was more like Fred Flintstone's closet...just open the door and the bowling ball hits you on the head- every time!
 
Old 07-15-2011, 02:54 AM   #1284
Sumguy
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Originally Posted by dalek View Post
The thing is, it would have to be about a distro that is easy to install and easy to maintain. Gentoo fails on the first point but may could make it on the second point. Mandriva I think would be good on the first point but fail on the second one, at least from my experience anyway. I'm not sure what distro I would want to be on the commercial and I think that is some of the problem. That said, I wouldn't want it to be just one distro for Linux either.

I even think about all the poorer countries that could benefit from this.

I think Ubuntu is the distro that stands out for non-geeks coming from Windows (such as myself). You install it (easy)...it comes with software designed to do all the things Windows users/average people are used to doing; it works out of the box...has fully functional GUI- so no CLI knowledge necessary- and basically, if you can use Windows, you can use Ubuntu.

Let my neighbor use my Ubuntu 'puter a while back...if it hadn't been for the fact that the close/minimize/maximize buttons were on the left of the windows, he would never have known that he was using Linux.

As for commercials though...why? If Linux distors have enough interested people to maintain them; update them; create software and offer support for us dummies.....then they have all they need. Sure, it can be a service to show others that there is a viable alternative to Windows...but there is really no advantage to spending money on that- as there will be no return on that money...it's just a good deed.

And most likely: Those who would be willing to try Linux, can find out about it on the net and through other channels....and those who never heard of it, likely would not try it just because they saw a commercial.

Whne I see someone in need- i.e. having "computer problems", I tell them about Linux. You'd be surprised how receptive most are, after years of Windows frustration.
 
Old 07-15-2011, 03:31 AM   #1285
dalek
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Originally Posted by Sumguy View Post
I think Ubuntu is the distro that stands out for non-geeks coming from Windows (such as myself). You install it (easy)...it comes with software designed to do all the things Windows users/average people are used to doing; it works out of the box...has fully functional GUI- so no CLI knowledge necessary- and basically, if you can use Windows, you can use Ubuntu.

Let my neighbor use my Ubuntu 'puter a while back...if it hadn't been for the fact that the close/minimize/maximize buttons were on the left of the windows, he would never have known that he was using Linux.

As for commercials though...why? If Linux distors have enough interested people to maintain them; update them; create software and offer support for us dummies.....then they have all they need. Sure, it can be a service to show others that there is a viable alternative to Windows...but there is really no advantage to spending money on that- as there will be no return on that money...it's just a good deed.

And most likely: Those who would be willing to try Linux, can find out about it on the net and through other channels....and those who never heard of it, likely would not try it just because they saw a commercial.

Whne I see someone in need- i.e. having "computer problems", I tell them about Linux. You'd be surprised how receptive most are, after years of Windows frustration.
The reason for a commercial is to educate people. One reason people don't try Linux is that they have never heard of it or know what it is. Even if it is just one or two commercials, that would let people know there is alternatives to M$. Given the problems M$ has, I could see quite a few people trying Linux. I'm sure M$ would be having meetings about it.

I have not used Ubuntu so I will take your word on its ease to use and install. I have read the same in other places tho. I have found that no distro is perfect. Gentoo is flexable as it gets but it is also harder to install. Others have their goods and bads as well.

I had a friend to come visit me today. He brought a old computer that he wants me to put a OS on. I loaned him a puter once before and it had Linux on it. It worked well until his house caught fire. Care to guess what he wants on it? The computer already has windoze on it but he wants it gone and Linux installed. Until I took him the other puter, he had never heard of Linux. He doesn't care what it is as long as it works. He knows Linux will work and work better. Before he got the puter from me, he had no clue what to look for or ask about. Even if he was staring at Google, he would have no idea what to type in or that there is even something else to search for.

 
Old 07-15-2011, 05:14 AM   #1286
jonyo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalek View Post
T
I have found that distrowatch doesn't really show anything but who can find the site and click on a link. It doesn't mean they are using or going to use any distro or even Linux at all. Even the Linux counter doesn't really mean anything. Even tho M$ sells its product, even they don't really know how many computers have their OS installed.

hey you're talking about me again lol
Quote:
I have found that distrowatch doesn't really show anything but who can find the site and click on a link.
and where tons of other folks start out with

i say the dw ranking thing deal is very relevant to new folks, lotsa you vets were prob around before it came on the scene

i know when i found that site, and i was trying to size up wth was up or down in linuxland, it came down to those rankings that i knew nothing about and focusing on the ones at the top

then you read up on the new voodoo talk and you find out quick WTH, 50 to 100 meg OSs?!?!

gotta check those things out

you try a buncha stuff, lotsa reading and more voodoo this and that, then you find out pup (was ~ #15 when i first looked) fires up pronto and you're on the net WOW, and you don't even have to touch billy's precious

haven't seen anyone cover those bases better myself yet

here's some stuff..
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtop...=542125#542125
Quote:
That's why I'm here boys! Besides, like the saying goes; keep your friends close, and your enemies closer!
it is war including linux within itself, anyone who doesn't know micro is formidable in many ways is clueless

trash talk gets you nowhere

Last edited by jonyo; 07-15-2011 at 05:47 AM.
 
Old 07-15-2011, 06:40 AM   #1287
dalek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonyo View Post
hey you're talking about me again lol


and where tons of other folks start out with

i say the dw ranking thing deal is very relevant to new folks, lotsa you vets were prob around before it came on the scene

i know when i found that site, and i was trying to size up wth was up or down in linuxland, it came down to those rankings that i knew nothing about and focusing on the ones at the top

then you read up on the new voodoo talk and you find out quick WTH, 50 to 100 meg OSs?!?!

gotta check those things out

you try a buncha stuff, lotsa reading and more voodoo this and that, then you find out pup (was ~ #15 when i first looked) fires up pronto and you're on the net WOW, and you don't even have to touch billy's precious

haven't seen anyone cover those bases better myself yet

here's some stuff..
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtop...=542125#542125


it is war including linux within itself, anyone who doesn't know micro is formidable in many ways is clueless

trash talk gets you nowhere
If you want to go by DW, then keep in mind that Gentoo was at the top, I think even #1, for a good while. If you want a distro that is easy to install and update, then you would have been sorely disappointed.

Again, DW is not even a guide as far as ratings go. You can read about different distros tho. They do explain that pretty well.

 
Old 07-15-2011, 06:52 AM   #1288
jonyo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalek View Post
If you want to go by DW, then keep in mind that Gentoo was at the top, I think even #1, for a good while. If you want a distro that is easy to install and update, then you would have been sorely disappointed.

Again, DW is not even a guide as far as ratings go. You can read about different distros tho. They do explain that pretty well.

point i was trying to make is when you are looking at that site for the first time and then afterwards, the rankings come into the picture for those first time looking at it folks, at least it did for me

the only ones i recall at the time now were ubuntu and pclos and it was around the time pclos was #1 for a bit

i know that it was of some concern at puppyland, it certainly wasn't dismissed at all by key players and was even actively exploited

put out releases faster than anyone else and you end up in the news at DW was the theme

puppy never bothered with the typical update stuff out there

Last edited by jonyo; 07-15-2011 at 07:08 AM.
 
Old 07-15-2011, 07:47 AM   #1289
dalek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonyo View Post
point i was trying to make is when you are looking at that site for the first time and then afterwards, the rankings come into the picture for those first time looking at it folks, at least it did for me

the only ones i recall at the time now were ubuntu and pclos and it was around the time pclos was #1 for a bit

i know that it was of some concern at puppyland, it certainly wasn't dismissed at all by key players and was even actively exploited

put out releases faster than anyone else and you end up in the news at DW was the theme

puppy never bothered with the typical update stuff out there
But the ranking don't really mean anything except that someone clicked on the link. That's all DW does is count clicks. It doesn't track who installs or downloads something, just the clicks.

I sort of doubt many release faster than Gentoo. KDE released 4.6.5 a few days ago. I got the email about the release. A couple days later, it was in Gentoo and I was installing it. I suspect most binary based distros haven't released it yet. It may be weeks or a month before they do so. That is based on what I have read in places not my personal experience. I have read where some distros needs months to get things released.

If I installed from the kde overlay, I could get the KDE releases even faster. That's the thing about Gentoo, it is source based. When something is released, especially the big things, it is in the tree pretty quick and ready to install. It's almost as fast as Linux from Scratch.

 
Old 07-15-2011, 08:01 AM   #1290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumguy View Post
I waste half my day fooling with email and surfing the net, and Linux allows me to do that while the OS remains invisible and just lets me do what I want. It also allows me to do my work without interference [the main reason I switched to Linux- because Windows was becoming a hinderence, and was making my work tedious and stressful]...but also allows me to have fun with the OS when I want to, by playing with configuration and learning new things.

With Windows, all my time spent messing with the OS was not for entertainment/fun, but rather to correct problems- and it was a PAIN; did not terach me anything (except how to fix that particular problem) and was not productive...as often the problem would not even get completely fixed...it seemed the goal more often than not was to just get back to "functional";
Would you mind give some examples for which kind of problems you wanted to correct on Windows that you couldn't because of Windows?

- You want to surf the net and emails half of the times and let the OS does you that, where did Windows didn't let you do that and Linux is letting you?
- Which kind of problems correction was a pain? Windows and Linux have different set of problems and takes different correction approach.
- Learning new things and playing with configuration? Windows is a different OS too and that demands learning like AD, registries and blah others. Didn't you learn a new thing about that OS?

Regards.
 
  


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