Because Shiny Things Are Fun - The New New Windows v Linux Thread

Originally Posted by dalek Also, if the bug was known that long, going a little longer wouldn't have made much difference anyway. Plus, I was on dial-up back then. Who in there right mind would try to hack a dial-up system nowadays? I could also add, as long as my hardware works, I don't update every time some fix comes out. If that was the case and was expected of everyone else, we would have to reboot waaay to much to suit me.

And here the benefit of having famous linux security (code review/quick fixes for bugs) goes out of the window.
Well, whatever. Not my problem anymore.

Originally Posted by SigTerm I guess this is the only correct opinion, so arguing will be meaningless. As it is with religion - people will belive in whatever they think is right, no matter what.

That's because I not bias about OSs. Every OS sucks. And people should get over it. Choose an OS that suits your lifestyle and needs and be happy.

Originally Posted by SigTerm And here the benefit of having famous linux security (code review/quick fixes for bugs) goes out of the window. Well, whatever. Not my problem anymore.

If the bug was there in 2003 and not fixed until 2010, how can you call that "quick fixes"? 7 years is a long time. Also, how do you know I was even affected by the bug? Maybe I had whatever the bug affected disabled. I don't know if I did or not so I know you don't know if it affected me or not. Heck, I didn't even know about the bug so even if I had upgraded/rebooted, I wouldn't have known about it anyway.

Seems like you are trying to make something bad out of my uptime because you can't deny the uptime. Seems sort of desperate to me. Oh well.

funny how folks think linux ain't up to par with windows an' yet continue to use linux. Shouldn't a person avoid an operating system if they didn't like it. I still see them with linux icons

@blahblahblah

No, not every OS sucks. just ain't perfect that's all

Every OS might suck....but Linux sucks a lot less than Windows!

Originally Posted by Sumguy Every OS might suck....but Linux sucks a lot less than Windows!

i hope you are speaking for yourself...

for me windows Is Getting Things Done .

Originally Posted by silvyus_06 for me windows Is Getting Things Done .

Same for Linux here. I don't even have windows and I get plenty of stuff done. Actually, I have got 100% more done on Linux than on windows. I know that is true because I never had windows on any of my rigs, ever. I wouldn't want to contaminate my hardware. lol

Originally Posted by SigTerm And here the benefit of having famous linux security (code review/quick fixes for bugs) goes out of the window. Well, whatever. Not my problem anymore.

Using FUD to prove your point doesn't help your cause (whatever that may be).
It makes you look just as childish as any other zealot.

That bug was fixed and uploaded in 7 days (from a debian pov).
As far I know it was never exploited (neither did it exist on every installation).

All software has bugs.
Some firms are just less helpful (and open) in fixing them.

PS: Modern hardening (SELinux and friends) would make it much more difficult to exploit this type of bugs.

Originally Posted by dalek Same for Linux here. I don't even have windows and I get plenty of stuff done. Actually, I have got 100% more done on Linux than on windows. I know that is true because I never had windows on any of my rigs, ever. I wouldn't want to contaminate my hardware. lol

then how can you comprae windows to linux when you don't even have it on your rig?

and no, windows is not some kind of extreme virus that would eventually always stay in the hardware(or your bios) make your rig sick,..

oh lol im rereading your post.
i see now what you meant nevermind what i said

Originally Posted by SigTerm I was talking about application deployment, not development.

No you weren't - reread your post. You were talking about removal of #ifdef's (which is a terrible idea, btw), single unified API (again, a bad idea), only distributing binaries (another bad idea).

Originally Posted by SigTerm I do not have evidence indicating that it is impossible.

I'm not going to say that automatic determination of binary dependencies is impossible, but let me give you an example for you to ponder:

You and I have two libraries, "libMYLIB.so" and "libYOURLIB.so", sitting in our own /lib/ folders. Each provides a function called "void foo()". You give me a piece of code, and I give you a piece of code. In YOUR world, no human has told the system where to resolve this. When I try to run the following code:

int main(){foo(); return 0;}

which does the linker choose to run?

In the current implementation, that information is coded in the binary because I, the developer, said:

When you, the linker, put all of this code together, ensure that you load libMYLIB.so

You can verify this via the ldd binary, which will display how the linker is going to resolve all of a binary's dependencies. Otherwise, the linker has to guess - and lets say my foo() calls "system("rm -rf /$HOME/*");" and your version of foo calls "system("/bin/touch /tmp/YOU_ARE_THE_COOLEST");" I know which one I'd rather have invoked. Can you say you know which one the linker will?

Plus, as I've said before, NONE of the issues you raised are real issues. I install distribution {debian|ubuntu|gentoo|redhat|suse|mandriva|sourcemage|puppy|...}, and it comes with all the dependencies it requires. When I want a package, I use the included package management tool {apt|yum|zypper|...} and say "install emacs" and it goes and downloads everything emacs needs to run, then installs it all. I didn't spend any other time, apart from the time it took to download and install. I didn't trace a single dependency, nor did I hunt down a bunch of esoteric packages like pango, cairo, ncurses, etc. that I didn't care to know about. The nice folks maintaining the distribution did that for me.

Additionally, because the software is distributed with the option of just getting the source, I can potentially disable anything I don't want/need on my system. That makes a lot of sense as a server administrator who doesn't want, say, X running on my system (X referring to a generic software package, not X.org, or XFree86, etc.). I can generally configure the software with --disable-{option}, and then any potential security issues I perceive can be mitigated. I can audit my code to make sure you haven't slipped "void send_all_data_to_china()" into it somewhere. I can see where you messed up and send you a message, "Hey, instead of a bubble sort here, use a merge sort. here's the code."

As far as the commercial world goes, that is a completely different beast. They're going to develop for whatever the most popular platform is, regardless what kind of APIs you give. You could have the best platform in the world in terms of developer friendliness, and it doesn't mean a thing - because 90% of the population is using something else. Business exists to make money, and unless you present a compelling case why a business makes money moving to linux, it won't happen.

Additionally, some other points you make all indicate that you'd like a project like FatELF to materialize in a mainstream way. Most OSS developers don't see an advantage to it - and since they write the software, the onus is on you to convince them why they need it.

Originally Posted by silvyus_06 i hope you are speaking for yourself...

I speak for everyone in the world...except for you and some guy named Jim.

Originally Posted by silvyus_06 for me windows Is Getting Things Done .

Well, I have to admit, I used to be able to do a lot with Windows, too- I used to be able to:

Defrag my hard drive.
Clean and edit the registry.
Scan for viruses.
Clean up the start menu every week.
Reboot my 'puter several times a day.
Re-install drivers.
Speak to people in India who sounded like they never used a computer.
Wait longer for the 'puter to shut down than it takes for Linux to boot up.
Do system restores.
Listen to my CPU fan scream while only running IE or Winders Mail.
Have the surprise of my settings and preferences disappearing for no reason.
Cntrl+Alt+Del!!!
Wade through MS's website to try & find answers but only finding other questions.
Spend hours deleting built-in advertising and malware.

Yes siree.....Winders sure keeps ya busy!

Originally Posted by Sumguy I speak for everyone in the world...except for you and some guy named Jim. Well, I have to admit, I used to be able to do a lot with Windows, too- I used to be able to: Defrag my hard drive. Clean and edit the registry. Scan for viruses. Clean up the start menu every week. Reboot my 'puter several times a day. Re-install drivers. Speak to people in India who sounded like they never used a computer. Wait longer for the 'puter to shut down than it takes for Linux to boot up. Do system restores. Listen to my CPU fan scream while only running IE or Winders Mail. Have the surprise of my settings and preferences disappearing for no reason. Cntrl+Alt+Del!!! Wade through MS's website to try & find answers but only finding other questions. Spend hours deleting built-in advertising and malware. Yes siree.....Winders sure keeps ya busy!

strange though i never did any of that.. hmmm ...

but i think that is alot more true for linux users though (except for some parts though)
how many users managed to make their broadcom cards work with ubuntu and then had to do that again without knowing wether it will work or not after every kernel update? what about unworking soundcards and videocards?
it's not linux's fault, but i really need to know how much to the core of windows and how much software you could install that you had to "clean up start menu"

and yes i did use CTRL-ALT-DEL while using windows xp on a 64 MB ram with 600mhz processore...

use linux with a gui on that (takes out dsl stick0

All my hardware works in linux and the BSDs. I even have mplayerplugin and flash 10 working in firefox in FreeBSD with the linux binary emulation layer.

Go figure

Originally Posted by blahblalblah All my hardware works in linux and the BSDs. I even have mplayerplugin and flash 10 working in firefox in FreeBSD with the linux binary emulation layer. Go figure

errrm...

yeah.. tell that to a new user and you'll freak 'im out haha

yeah.. tell that to a new user and you'll freak 'im out haha

Umm, it's BSD...it's even more geek-centric than Linux.

(No offense intended to blahblalblah, BTW)