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Old 03-04-2011, 09:34 AM   #781
silvyus_06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTK358 View Post
New users may find it intimidating, but I would not want to have Linux without a command line.

And about Ubuntu being slow, that's because of all the fancy, useless eye-candy and services it runs in the background. I have a laptop that was hopelessly slow with Windows XP and Fedora, but it's comfortably fast with Arch (I used it to practice installing Arch before doing it on my main desktop).
desktop environment matters alot.


as of losing the 10 pages because of my fault. why? because i was just doing my homework, my mom told me to come t eat and the computer stand by itself, and when i came back the only thing i could to do get to a usable desktop again was to hard shutdown??

i stand byed windows sever times and it comes back :\ and i can even set windows to also hibernate before standbying so in any case i can hard shut down my pc and lose nothing.

as to the one who said windows has a poor app set of GUI , please prove to me what you could not get done under gui IN windows but you did in linux.

how numerous times have you had to use apt-get in command line because ubuntu software center didnt work and it locked up as soon as it started? how about all the apps that get scared when you throw too man mouse clicks at them and they grey out (that is true for windows too but didnt hppen as many time as on ubuntu)

well, as of arch running flawlessly i trust you.
but how much configuration files did you have to edit?
now we come back to the point where you have to put more maintanance in a linux system than in a windows system....
 
Old 03-04-2011, 09:52 AM   #782
silvyus_06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sycamorex View Post
You are talking about different things here. 99% of normal windows users have never had to install Windows. They bought a computer with their OS preinstalled (drivers, basic programs) All the configuration needed to operate the system was done by the manufacturer. Imagine what would happen if they had to install Windows themselves and configure it afterwards. They would be equally clueless as they are when it comes to linux. They'd have to learn it or call some techie have it done for them.

Now then, 99% of normal users experience linux having had to install it from scratch.

See the difference? Therefore, your comparison is completely unfair.
that's kind of true with windows xp and vista. (with windows xp mostly because poeple try to put it on new rigs that didnt exist in the years xp was built.) ( i tried putting xp on my rig and there were no drivers for xp on my manufacturers website)
and vista.. well i cant sat nothing because i had never installed vista(had it preconfigured)

but i installed windows 7 and it automatically detected all my hardware. a windows update happened to my rig and i even have 3d graphics now.
what did i configure? i just installed what i needed for my daily use (open office, ms office, photoshop, firefox, addons for firefox, google chrome, wuala , virtualbox and so on.)


EDIT: and i neither don't need to defragment (and windows is as snappy)

all that softwaer to repair windows are mostly for xp if you mind.
windows 7 without any maintenance from my part is as snappy as when i installed it.
the guy who said that his ubuntu gets better while being installed for longer time on that rig is just in a nice dream. i guess he never installed any software appart from the default set.
try installing google chrome, chromium, xsensors, audacity , GIMP, and lots and lots of software then compare the slow down to a windows machine. heh. got results?
there's no mandatory system restore for windows. i just said to make a good restore point after you just configured your windows with all your programs so if just in case somethinng hits your machine you can restore to that completely configured point you created.
actually id love to find system restore on linux (after all those nasty kernel updates that screw up stuff and make hardware not to work anymore would be nice to get baack to the point where it didnt install)

as for the one who said im messing with my mbr.
heck, i just had ubuntu installed on my computer and that.
no other os fighting to get control over the mbr.
but ubuntu crapped my grubs itself with updates. really, linux updates suck (not that windows ones don't just that windows doesn't make itself not boot anymore because its been updated. really.

Last edited by silvyus_06; 03-04-2011 at 10:03 AM.
 
Old 03-04-2011, 10:02 AM   #783
sycamorex
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Quote:
but i installed windows 7 and it automatically detected all my hardware. a windows update happened to my rig and i even have 3d graphics now.
Slackware did the same to my laptop without even getting any update (well, I did install nvidia binary driver, but didn't have to)

Quote:
i just installed what i needed for my daily use (open office, ms office, photoshop, firefox, addons for firefox, google chrome, wuala , virtualbox and so on.)
With the exception of MS office/Photoshop you can do the same on ubuntu with one command (instead of visiting each website to download .exe files)
 
Old 03-04-2011, 10:23 AM   #784
MTK358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvyus_06 View Post
well, as of arch running flawlessly i trust you.
I didn't say it runs flawlessly with no maintenance, I said it was really, really fast compared to Fedora or Windows XP.

Quote:
but how much configuration files did you have to edit?
A lot. Not that I'm really complaining, I don't see how editing a text file full of key=value pairs is that much harder than a GUI config dialog.

Quote:
now we come back to the point where you have to put more maintanance in a linux system than in a windows system....
After initial configuration, there isn't much maintenance to do other than occasionally running "pacman -Syu" (which works pretty reliably, but it's a mess if the slightest thing goes wrong with it). But it never caused any kernel-related problems or things that prevented the system from booting.

This brings me to another point: what is an "average user" to do if a package (s)he wants is not in the repository? When asked to compile a source package, I think the average computer-illiterate user would say "f*** this, it's so complicated. I'm going back to Windows because it's so much easier".

I wonder if it's possible to create a tool that can convert any package to the system's native format, including source tarballs, other package formats, and binary installers?
 
Old 03-04-2011, 10:39 AM   #785
silvyus_06
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i know! and that is one super awesome thing about ubuntu and linux in general (or at least with debian package management )

but you see, the windows user is used to that. many would find it far easier searching google , downloading an exe, double clicking then next next next
than learning to use a CLI command to install all their programs . and for the average user that would take far more time to learn how to use apt-get openofficeorg wuala virtualbox chromium because i'm pretty sure all guides would want to tell the user first what apt-get does, then tell him the awesome way it lets you install multiple programs at once and walk you through all the features but at the final never tells you at least an example of how to install your progs

that being said, it would take 1 hour at least for the user to learn to use apt-get while in windows the programs would already be installed and ready to use (perhaps the user may have to restart after installing some programs, but you can install all programs you need then reboot once for all programs)
 
Old 03-04-2011, 10:44 AM   #786
silvyus_06
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well, A GUI has pretty buttons to click on and sometimes even give you explanations of what stuff means. it's stylish and the user finds it easier because it has more spaces inside the dialog (types a fragment of text on the upper side of the box then leaves lots of space till the next button. it's psychological. no one likes when he sees a file full of unFORMATTED text that even wants you to know what eaCH Thing is and decide if it is good or not. GUI interface can perhaps explain or say : it's recommended to use this option so the user just uses the recommended stuff and it is straightforward
 
Old 03-04-2011, 10:59 AM   #787
MTK358
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I think the reason people are afraid of the command line but not so much of GUIs is because a GUI menu has all the stuff you can do listed out, but in a CLI you have to memorize the commands and know what you can do beforehand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silvyus_06 View Post
the user finds it easier because it has more spaces inside the dialog (types a fragment of text on the upper side of the box then leaves lots of space till the next button. it's psychological. no one likes when he sees a file full of unFORMATTED text that even wants you to know what eaCH Thing is and decide if it is good or not. GUI interface can perhaps explain or say : it's recommended to use this option so the user just uses the recommended stuff and it is straightforward
I have no clue what you're talking about.
 
Old 03-04-2011, 11:22 AM   #788
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
Even slackware gets to desktop slower.
That does not reflect my experience...
Quote:
One of the most hilarious bugs I ever got on computer happened on linux.
If you managed to configure pen tabled for the linux system, then touching tablet's surface will crash X-server instantly, if tablet wasn't plugged in before X-server started (slackware 12, g-pen 450, wizardpen 0.9).
Nor does this.
Quote:
Mozilla firefox on both slackware/ubuntu systems was extremely prone to hangups (resulted in "screen painting") and frequently needed to be killed manually. Maybe this problem has been fixed since then, but I'm not in the mood to check.
I can't speak for Ubuntu, but I never experienced this issue with Slackware.
Quote:
Have you ever configured USB scanner on linux (SANE)? How about graphic tablets? Or a webcam?
Yes, yes, no.
Quote:
Linux doesn't work for everyone.
Agreed.
Quote:
Linux is not complete as an operating system, but windows is.
Really? I don't see it.
 
Old 03-04-2011, 11:24 AM   #789
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lazlow View Post
Most windows users have YEARS worth of training that have gotten them used to doing things the windows way. It is not that there is more to learn in Linux but that it is different.
A point that is often overlooked when comparing Linux and Windows.
 
Old 03-04-2011, 12:07 PM   #790
silvyus_06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mudangel View Post
A point that is often overlooked when comparing Linux and Windows.
sure it is.

@MTK358 yes that is actually exactly what i meant , just that my english didn't really allow me to explain it like that.
and that on CLI you have to type every command, spell it correctly.

but on GUI they also put human understandable commands : right click on a folder and "move to trash or delete" is far more understandable than rm -r ... don't you think so ?
 
Old 03-04-2011, 12:58 PM   #791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sycamorex View Post
Therefore, your comparison is completely unfair.
I don't think so.
There isn't as many version of windows as there are linux distros, and with windows machine nothing stops you from calling technical support and asking them to walk you through the installation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTK358 View Post
Maybe, but at the same time your comparison is a but unfair.
I think it IS a fair, and it is as things should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTK358 View Post
Also, the devices you mentioned are single-purpose.
Nope.
Cellphone: calls, video calls, watching video, listening to music, gps navigation, internet browsing, games, IM messaging. Advanced models may support ssh/telnet and console - if it runs java or have SDK, then you can write almost anything for it (as long as you fit into CPU/battery/memory requirements). Plus at least SOME of them use OS designed to run on multiple different devices. Not much of a difference from computer, if you ask me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mudangel View Post
That does not reflect my experience...
By naked eye, untuned slackware takes 20% more time to get to desktop than winxp machine. Tuned slackware (kernel update/rebuild with CPU optimization) takes 10% more time. Ubuntu takes significantly longer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mudangel View Post
Nor does this.
I can't speak for Ubuntu, but I never experienced this issue with Slackware.
Well, it does reflect my experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mudangel View Post
Really? I don't see it.
I have impression that discussion is going around in circles.

Windows has a stable single fixed platform suitable for development. Attractive for commercial application.
Linux is still do-it-yourself lego kit with way too many alternatives. As it was nicely said in this discussion, platform is fragmented. There are frequently several competing technologies designed to do the same thing (example: package management, desktops). Every component may or may not be present. As a result there is no single distro at which you could point and say "this is GNU/Linux". There is a linux kernel, and it is recognizable, but there is no strict set of utilities that should be present on the system (there is a set of command-line utilities, but aside from that...). It is too flexible to be attractive for commercial applications.
You can grab linux and adjust it for a special one-time needs, but it is completely unsuitable as a platform for commercial applications. For example, I would use linux if I had to build a computer cluster for very specialized needs, or (say) an operating system for a robot (it will work as a construction kit), but I would avoid developing commercial applications for it at all cost - because there is no single standard "GNU/Linux platform", as a result, supporting the APP will be an expensive pain in the ***. On other hand, Windows doesn't work well as a construction kit, but as a target development platform it is extremely attractive - supporting it is fairly easy.

There should be a clear distinction between "lego kit" distribution and "normal user" distribution.
For a "normal user" distribution, to make Linux into a platform instead of construction kit, there is a need for standard that every distribution should support. There should be a set of functions that every distribution supports, or at least a single centralized way for applications to query which functionality is available. All desktops should support some kind of common programming interface, and there should be one standard way to install program. It needs some kind of committee that would oversee standards for entire platform. Unless something like that happens, in my opinion, as a platform linux will remain niche OS forever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silvyus_06 View Post
...
but on GUI
I do not think that "CLI vs GUI" discussion has anything to do with "Windows vs Linux". You can install all (well, mostly all) standard tools onto windows machine and use them from CLI as you would on Linux. I use a mix of CLI/GUI tools for development, for example.
 
Old 03-04-2011, 01:15 PM   #792
MTK358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
Nope.
Cellphone: calls, video calls, watching video, listening to music, gps navigation, internet browsing, games, IM messaging. Advanced models may support ssh/telnet and console - if it runs java or have SDK, then you can write almost anything for it (as long as you fit into CPU/battery/memory requirements). Plus at least SOME of them use OS designed to run on multiple different devices. Not much of a difference from computer, if you ask me.
I'm not familiar with smartphones at all, I never had one and don't know how the interface feels or how to use them. So I wanted to ask some questions:

Do mobile OSes on smartphones ever have unsupported driver problems?

Is the software on them routinely upgraded, and if so, how?

Do they have a fixed set of libraries for programmers to use, or are the libraries just packages that con be installed/uninstalled?

Quote:
Windows has a stable single fixed platform suitable for development. Attractive for commercial application.
Linux is still do-it-yourself lego kit with way too many alternatives.
That seems like a valid point, but on the other hand how come ordinary people who write FOSS for Linux manage just fine?

Also, maybe I just don't know all the intricacies of GNU/Linux, but it seems like almost all distros have about the same directory hierarchy, and if the appropriate libraries are installed, a binary would run.

Very often FOSS projects distribute precompiled binaries, and somehow it works.
 
Old 03-04-2011, 01:44 PM   #793
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if the appropriate libraries are installed, a binary would run.
But there exist multiple libraries for basically the same purpose, and I think this is the point SigTerm is trying to make. Example: GTK+ and Qt. Both are GUI toolkits, but have different APIs.
 
Old 03-04-2011, 01:46 PM   #794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTK358 View Post
I'm not familiar with smartphones at all, I never had one and don't know how the interface feels or how to use them. So I wanted to ask some questions:
You'll be better off asking someone else - either a gadget geek or a mobile platform developer. I have only one symbian phone, so my experience is very limited and I cannot give detailed answer for your questions. Nevertheless abilities I mentioned (internet/music/video/games/java) are present in many models.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTK358 View Post
Is the software on them routinely upgraded, and if so, how?
Using the internet (on symbian, at least) - either with assistance of computer or via cellphone. You don't have to update, though, it will work fine as it is (you may want to update GPS maps, though).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTK358 View Post
Do they have a fixed set of libraries for programmers to use, or are the libraries just packages that con be installed/uninstalled?
(on symbian) There is a sort of "package manager" which lists several "standard libraries".
 
Old 03-04-2011, 01:47 PM   #795
MTK358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCode View Post
But there exist multiple libraries for basically the same purpose, and I think this is the point SigTerm is trying to make. Example: GTK+ and Qt. Both are GUI toolkits, but have different APIs.
So SigTerm thinks there should be only one API?
 
  


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