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Old 02-05-2011, 11:54 AM   #556
Jeebizz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny_Strawn View Post
Not selling. They'll think they're *getting Photoshop for free* when really they'll be getting GIMP at the last moment. And even then, the menu entries will say "Adobe Photoshop" with icons that look slightly different so as not to interfere with trademarks, but they will launch GIMP.

Same thing goes for:

Microsoft Office 2003/LibreOffice

iTunes/Banshee

Nero/Brasero

Internet Explorer/Firefox

MatLab/SageMath

Microsoft Visual Studio/Code::Blocks

GarageBand/Ardour

etc. etc. etc.
Yea, and then when they discover that it is NOT Photoshop, etc what makes you think they will not come back angry that they did not get what they wanted?

Essentially you are doing false advertising on the goal of spreading FOSS, sorry but in the long run this will only hurt the community.
 
Old 02-05-2011, 12:26 PM   #557
MTK358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny_Strawn View Post
Not selling. They'll think they're *getting Photoshop for free* when really they'll be getting GIMP at the last moment. And even then, the menu entries will say "Adobe Photoshop" with icons that look slightly different so as not to interfere with trademarks, but they will launch GIMP.
Even if it's not selling, it's still false advertising and it's still plain wrong to trick people like that.

I think that instead of them being happy about discovering a FOSS alternative, it would make them very angry about how you promised them something and gave them something different that they're not familiar with.

How would you feel if you were uncomfortable with computers but were familiar with Ubuntu and knew how to use it for most things. Now let's pretend Microsoft tells you to get Windows because it's better, and promises that you will have all your Ubuntu apps. So you install them, and then it turns out it was a big trick and you got unfamiliar Windows apps instead.

You would probably go on ranting about how evil MS would be for doing that. But somehow it's fine for you if it's Linux using the unfair tactics.

Last edited by MTK358; 02-05-2011 at 12:34 PM.
 
Old 02-05-2011, 04:07 PM   #558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny_Strawn
even then, the menu entries will say "Adobe Photoshop" with icons that look slightly different so as not to interfere with trademarks
I'm pretty sure that just using "Adobe Photoshop" to label a piece of software that isn't Photoshop is infringing on the trademark...
 
Old 02-05-2011, 04:39 PM   #559
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I really like Kenny's selective ethical standards: It's not okay to be unethical if you happen to be MS. It's, however, perfectly okay to use trickery and deceit as long as it's in
the name of something that Kenny believes in.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't something like that usually called hypocrisy?
 
Old 02-05-2011, 04:56 PM   #560
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meh.. i'm from romania but don't know if there is in the us this thing, i quote: lie has small legs

so better , just , when the user first boots his computer, show him a big box and tell him something like :

congratulations! you're using linux! if you are coming from windows here are some program alternatives :
[...]
and then down it should be a box to tick if the user wants to see that everytime the computer starts,and also if he does not want to see it when the pc starts tell him where to find some launcher for it, o when he needs the equivalent of that good windows program , he can see the alternative list..
it can make switching easier i guess
 
Old 02-05-2011, 05:36 PM   #561
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Quote:
better , just , when the user first boots his computer, show him a big box and tell him something like :

congratulations! you're using linux! if you are coming from windows here are some program alternatives :
[...]
Linux Mint already does a similar thing on first-time bootup.
 
Old 02-05-2011, 06:20 PM   #562
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Sorry for posting the "deceptive advertising" post. However, here's what I'm thinking instead:

What if we were to create a Patentleft software license but still permit companies who use patented features under the license to use proprietary logos and branding and still permit them to sell technical support with the software? Basically turn companies who are obsessed with proprietary software into Red Hat clones...

Last edited by Kenny_Strawn; 02-05-2011 at 07:01 PM. Reason: Corrected typo of the word "if".
 
Old 02-05-2011, 06:54 PM   #563
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I don't think that forcing people against their will is a good way to promote FOSS, either.
 
Old 02-05-2011, 07:02 PM   #564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTK358 View Post
I don't think that forcing people against their will is a good way to promote FOSS, either.
How would it be forcing them against their will?
 
Old 02-05-2011, 07:23 PM   #565
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kenny, man, quit while you're behind. and furthermore, photoshop > gimp. Same thing goes for:

Quote:
Microsoft Office 2003/LibreOffice

iTunes/Banshee

Nero/Brasero

Internet Explorer/Firefox

MatLab/SageMath

Microsoft Visual Studio/Code::Blocks

GarageBand/Ardour
im sorry to tell you, but the majority of those FOSS alternatives are no where near as good as the proprietary versions.

office, maybe, if you aren't making any ppt presentations.

itunes has that all important ability to sync with iProducts effortlessly, something which at least for newer iDevices, cant be done without a lot of work on the user's part. I still havent been able to sync my iPad with my linux desktop.

nero/brasero, i dont know too much about, but i think that disk burn/write software is pretty basic. i doubt anyone will be missing stuff there, so this might be a good replacement.

firefox is better, you win here.

matlab/sagemath no clue here, i have no idea what those are used for.

Visual studio/code::blocks um no. try form editing .net without visual studio. visual studio wins for some things but as far as c++ and java prorgams go, gcc is amazing and the jdk is multi platform. python is a plus as well :P

as far as garageband/ardour go, (im shooting from the hip here, dont know much about either, as i dont do music recording) my impression is that garageband is designed to be really easy and user friendly, so that someone who never used the software before can pick it up and have fun with it. ardour, on the other hand seems to be a bit more difficult. (to be honest, i built and installed it on my slackware machine, and i couldnt even get past the initial configuration page, i kept getting JACK errors)




this is one of the problems that linux has. it has opensource equivalents, but often they fall short of being a full substitute for the original software. this stops a lot of people from fully switching over to linux. i had a hard time switching fully at first, and now that i have (and have been for almost a year now) i did have to give things up. for example, i am a design major, and i have to run photoshop through wine, and deal with all the issues that brings, and i also have not synced or put music/video on my ipad since i made the switch. issues like these cause problems for a lot of potential converts.
 
Old 02-05-2011, 07:58 PM   #566
SigTerm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny_Strawn View Post
How are they unethical?
Because you're lying to people. It is classic bait and switch, definetely feels like a fraud/scam and is probably illegal anyway. And people are generally not happy when you trick them into using something they didn't want.

Opensource software you listed is NOT a perfect equivalent to proprietary software you listed.

A practical example:
If user looks for a generic IDE, it is okay to recommend Code::Blocks, Eclipse, Visual studio, etc - because user has no preferences.
However, when a user asks you precisely for microsoft visual studio 2008 and you give him Code::Blocks and claim this is what the dude wanted, you should be prepared to at least run for your life. If there is even a smallest difference between Code::Blocks (and there is, trust me) and Visual Studio, they are not equivalent to each other. Even if you think the difference is small, it might be actually critical for the user. Professionals know their tools, and have reasons for using this particular tool, and may rely on certain technology or tool (you maybe don't even know existed) that is available only in this particular product. When you trick them, you waste their time, and as result they'll get angry and they'll want you to be severely punished to maximum possible extent (actual consequences depends on the person. Pray that the person doesn't have anger management issues).
There are many different IDEs, but only one Visual Studio. And if user needs Visual Studio to work (not a "generic ide"), there is no alternative software that has completely identical functionality. Same applies to all other tools you listed. A lot of proprietary software has NO completely identical opensource equivalent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny_Strawn View Post
How would it be forcing them against their will?
Because when somebody asks for photoshop, it is not their will to use gimp. If it was their will to use gimp, they would have asked for gimp instead.
Do you like spam or misleading advertising links? What you're offering is practically the same - you give people what they didn't want, don't need, and didn't ask you for.
 
Old 02-05-2011, 08:10 PM   #567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
Because when somebody asks for photoshop, it is not their will to use gimp. If it was their will to use gimp, they would have asked for gimp instead.
Do you like spam or misleading advertising links? What you're offering is practically the same - you give people what they didn't want, don't need, and didn't ask you for.
I wasn't referring to the bait and switch method, I was referring to Patentleft.

That being:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patentleft

And to use it in such a way that companies will still be able to use proprietary logos and branding and still sell technical support with the software.
 
Old 02-05-2011, 08:24 PM   #568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trademark91 View Post
itunes has that all important ability to sync with iProducts effortlessly, something which at least for newer iDevices, cant be done without a lot of work on the user's part. I still havent been able to sync my iPad with my linux desktop.
If you switch to Linux, don't buy iDevices.
 
Old 02-05-2011, 08:31 PM   #569
Kenny_Strawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTK358 View Post
If you switch to Linux, don't buy iDevices.
Very true. The Samsung Galaxy Tab is a perfect iPad (or should I say "CryPad") replacement.

And if you want something to replace the iPod or iPhone, any Android phone (like my Motorola MB503 "Flipside" or any of the Droids) will do. You can play music and videos on Android phones with absolutely no problem, along with games. And you have the added ability to call people.
 
Old 02-05-2011, 08:50 PM   #570
SigTerm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny_Strawn View Post
I wasn't referring to the bait and switch method, I was referring to Patentleft.

That being:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patentleft

And to use it in such a way that companies will still be able to use proprietary logos and branding and still sell technical support with the software.
Here you go...:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny_Strawn View Post
What if we were to create a Patentleft software license but still permit companies who use patented features under the license to use proprietary logos and branding and still permit them to sell technical support with the software?
How is it different from GPL? It is possible to use GPL with proprietary content, which has already been done (War$ow - GPL engine, proprietary content). Also, if you think about it, Mozilla Firefox logo is copyright and is not GPL.
In case of GPL with proprietary content it is possible to remove proprietary content, replace it with your own and make your own product (it might be a problem for a computer game, but for standard application it is different story). From my opinion, selling support is not attractive enough - you're unable to control situation, and one user may (and probably will) become experienced and will start helping other people for free. As a result your company will be losing cash (since you're selling support, not software). As for logos... people don't buy logos. They buy products. The logo serves only to identify the product and make maker more popular. This wouldn't look attractive enough to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny_Strawn View Post
Basically turn companies who are obsessed with proprietary software into Red Hat clones...
For some reason I don't see a "selling technical support" model being adopted world wide and I don't see RedHat linux on every PC. Personally, I'd prefer to pay for product and then get a free support for some time - it looks more sensible to me, but it might be a personal preference. Another problem with "pay for support" is that I'll have to pay if I encounter software bug, I guess.

I'd recommend to look at situation from position of proprietary developer.
If I make a proprietary software product, it needs to generate enough profits to:
  • Cover development costs
  • Fund development of the next product
  • Earn positive income so company will become wealthier and become more attractive for investors.

As long as we deal with piracy, proprietary license is perfect for that situation - total control, we charge for copy of a product.

In proprietary product it is possible to use other products/libraries with following license
  • Public domain - no possible complaints here.
  • BSD license (perfect) - we have a source code access, no viral stuff. It also makes sense to support developers of BSD project.
  • Proprietary license - whether it is perfect or not depends on license terms. If we have source code access, can modify code but are not allowed to resell source code access right to anybody else, license is OK. Less attractive than BSD.
  • LGPL - we can link with it, but cannot modify it, because if we make a fork, we'll have to release sources to everybody. Makes sense to use only if library works as needed in unmodified form. Less attractive than proprietary
  • GPL - absolutely useless in project's code, GPL licensing products can be used only in development (build systems), no GPL code should be included in final product due to GPL viral nature. Least attractive. Makes sense to support developers of products that are being used in development, but using GPL code is not possible.

There may be other ways of getting cash from proprietary product instead of selling it, though (for example, NVidia PhysX is free for developers, and basically serves to promote their graphic chips.)

Also I'd recommend to think what exactly do you want from proprietary software, and how can you turn it into attractive proposal for proprietary developers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny_Strawn View Post
any Android phone (like my Motorola MB503 "Flipside" or any of the Droids) will do. You can play music and videos on Android phones with absolutely no problem, along with games. And you have the added ability to call people.
IF this article tells truth, then android platform is the platform I won't support. For me it looks more sensible to support nokia instead - because I like that they made Qt 4 (which I use in development) available under LGPL license and keep supporting it, and I program in C++ instead of java.

Last edited by SigTerm; 02-05-2011 at 08:59 PM.
 
  


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