Clearly "Linux" does and isn't windows trying out Linux and\or it's uses\ers*

You and I alone are not we! :scratch::D

Interesting posts, always happy to read intelligent, thought-out proposals or responses. The idea that 'systemd is what we have so we just have to live with it' is probably unavoidable dependent on what side of the server one is working on. One thing is clear - it's here to stay and it's not getting out. The only thing one can do is support those distros which don't use it. Those that have adopted it are already 'lost'.

Having said that, I can count on one hand the amount of non-systemd distros I would trust, and Devuan is not one of them. I don't know who ESR is [and the opening of his post there is rather ostentatious regardless of who he is] but I would agree in not adopting Devuan. I also agree about the forum - most Linux fora these days, in fact. There seems to be little expertise around and I'm in two minds about trusting some of the people closely involved with Devuan.

I think that's really it at the end of the day: I completely trust those involved with Slackware and whom I've spoken with on these forums, both the developers and the seasoned users. Their focus is determined and their vision unwavering, something I see less and less in the Linuxsphere, and something that is becoming increasingly absent for those distros who've adopted systemd. It's the difference between an athlete who's in the zone, constantly improving themselves and an overweight, raconteur ex-runner bellowing their former glories from the sofa between mouthfuls of Cheetos.

While I don't wish to discuss systemd yet again, other than to say; I'm neither a fan or a "hater" of it. Anyways, and just for a little perspective on the latest bugs: https://www.zdnet.com/article/new-li...les-uncovered/

I like this part:

Almost forgot:

I would also remind people that you name the software, it's very likely there have been bugs discovered with it at some point, so it's *not just* systemd. This also includes things like OpenBSD too, funny how some members seem to totally ignore those bugs...

carry on...

Indeed, but surely the point with systemd is it's not just any old package, it's a behemoth that acts as userpace in the majority of distros. Sure, one may not worry about bugs/exploits on one's desktop as much, but in larger companies - and with all of the top 500 supercomputers in the world now running some variant of Linux - it's a little more concerning.

I'm pretty sure it's Eric S. Raymond, well known as a proponent of free software and one who understands the ecosystem well, not so well known for social skills or excessive humility. I'm inclined to trust his judgement on Devuan, much as I hope it succeeds as a distro.

If it is Eric Raymond then that's great, however, I was a little put off by his intro of, "look it's me guys, take notice etc". No matter who it is, even if it were Linus Torvalds posting, it's a little arrogant as you noted.

That said, I have read The Cathedral and the Bazaar and have cited it often in my own research. As stated, I don't trust Devuan, neither did my mentor, and if Eric Raymond also doesn't then it just adds another string to that bow.

I love how people call finally releasing fixes for eight year old bugs "already patched".

It's not half as bad as it appears, but there are certain people who are brimming over with certain ideological views and use the site as a channel for those views.

Slackware is a known, trusted piece of established quality and consistency - with a considerable pedigree and standing in Linuxland.

Devuan however is a bermuda triangle of uncertainties.

It's in a seemingly indefinite limbo of having Debian as an upstream, so it's still not a "fork" and working around Debian's systemd entanglements (in that respect it's similar to something like antix).

It is however slowly gaining some traction, it has defied the odds (it's certainly lived far longer than I expected...), but it's doing so as a Debian derivative, rather than an independent project.

I'm just not sold on Debian being "forkable". If you think of a typical Linux distribution you think of Debian, SUSE, Red Hat, whatever...

In every case those are big projects, with lots of people and often corporate backers being involved. To fork those projects you have to "fork" all the people, resources, infrastructure, documentation, websites, etc, etc... it's a huge undertaking...

It's not like forking something like e.g. sysvinit, where one person can write the code, maintain it and publish it.

Something like Slackware is technically a project which could be forked. It would take a few individuals and a lot of their own time and expense to get started, but is feasible at least - as it would not involve the maintenance of tens of thousands of packagers and a whole host of infrastructure etc, etc, etc...

Indeed, but reading that topic again, it seems like ER [or ESR] was driven out by the attitude of some posters in that thread. He hasn't posted since.

He does note that there's a hangover community attitude from Debian. All I can say is that a lot of the more mature posters out there don't snap at constructive criticism and advice from those more knowledgeable. They certainly don't take it personally.

As are all distros apart from about 7 or 8 of them [as far as I'm concerned, anyway]. And that number gets split in half if we factor in community usefulness [or uselessness].

Yes it would certainly appear so - but as you've noted, he didn't exactly arrive there with the best attitude either.

I don't really get how he came to the conclusion that Devuan was going to be some serious commercial venture to take on and displace and overtake systemd - so essentially taking on Red Hat, Ubuntu and SUSE as well as all the other non commercial offerings who also adopted it.

Yes it was all very snappy and overly defensive, but they have been "under fire" from various trolls both there and on their mailing lists for a few years. But still, I agree there is no excuse for it.

Well yes, but Devuan more so. It was never clear if those "developing" it were in for the long haul and at one point it wasn't really clear who was maintaining it - except for some self styled "collective" of "veteran UNIX administrators".

It has attracted a lot of hangers on - i.e. those without any real ability, but who are very much into the ideological side of the argument (systemd is a nefarious plot, etc). About as plot like as it gets, is that it's a Red Hat backed venture clearly aimed at furthering Red Hat's commercial interests - and you don't really need to get deep into any conspiracy stories to work that one out. The person I quoted at the FreeBSD forums is of the same opinion, as are several others there and elsewhere and that person is as level headed and anti conspiracy/tin foil as they come.

//edit:
I certainly did. Link?

Look at message #8 in the "Donating to Slackware" discussion.

Anyone remember the episode of The Andy Griffith Show where the farmer didn't want his kid going school-ever because they had to work the farm... it's never your lawn, it's a planet but at least we got to eat.

Seems to be the fate of the small projects when compared with bigger corporate backed ones.

The "business model" of optical media is now very dated and has little appeal anymore. As someone brought up in thread, if you don't live in the US you're buying something and paying more for the carriage - plus, as has been revealed, a third party is creaming off the rewards...

PV probably needs to make some small changes to the Slackware website and list all the donors there and give the business/corporate/large individual donors the usual bronze, silver, gold, platinum type ranking, plus put up their logo and links and of course get a visible donations page up. Anyway, probably already covered extensively in that epic sized thread...

Sad situation.

Actually I don't think anyone made that suggestion. He has received a lot of donations though, and it has made an important difference to his personal life, from what I can gather.

People can buy through his CafePress account. It's been noted that people don't give a stuff for optical media - what people basically want is coffee mugs and t shirts. Maybe stickers. Maybe a keyring? The Slackware logo would also look good on an Oreo [Sloreo™].