Because Shiny Things Are Fun - The New New Windows v Linux Thread

Originally Posted by hedron 2) Everything in Linux must be configured. Everything. This is a double edged sword. If it wasn't highly configurable, Linux wouldn't have its edge. On the other hand, I just want to use my computer. I don't want to futz around configuring every last thing. This is the main reason I left for Win7. Win7 installs and everything just works. Really. I'm not just saying that and I don't work for MS. I don't even own their stock.

Everything? I dont think so, but how much mucking around you need to do will vary with your distro.

For myself, I can get a decent linux install done, from shoving the CD/DVD in to 'fully finished' much faster with linux than with windows. Its takes me about as long as the install time on a linux distro just to d/l the drivers I need for windows.

Originally Posted by SilverBack My 2�0„4. Computers are for computing. If you want to play games why not buy a xbox or something that would give you _real_ gaming experience?

*snort* *chuckle*

Yes, that chunky controller makes a huge difference, doesnt it? Wait a sec, you can use xbox controllers on a computer... Maybe its the amazing quality from a TV? No, I dont think so, monitors tend to have better quality than TV, and you can always hook up a computer to TV anyway...

Xboxs are glorified x86 computers, and even if they are 'fast' on release give it a year or so then the computer video cards not only catch but pass the xbox graphics. Slightly different story with praystations, with the same outcome. Besides, sony and microsoft are NOT companies I want to support, and lets face, the wii is fun but graphically its soooooo late 1990s. :P

For better and more varied controls, more powerful video capabilities, more choice in gaming, more choice in manufacturers, the ability to upgrade, and a device you can use for more functions (I could go on but I wont) get the computer every time.

For red ring of death, closed and sealed systems, and being held to console model XXX because you've got $500 worth of games that wont work on the newer systems (or the competitions systems) go for consoles.

Originally Posted by unixfool I think most people don't care, as long as they have a working system. These are the people that take their systems to Best Buy or any major computer store that is local to them and have them perform basic maintenance and/or troubleshooting. They treat their systems like black box appliances. It's usually the power users that flock to Linux...that, and the open-minded people. I've not seen any Linux user that doesn't like to tinker somewhat with a system. I used to have an Eagle Talon, which was considered a sports car awhile back. I joined a mailing list that had maybe 300 subscribers that loved to tinker on their Talons (and Eclipses and Lasers...same car, different branding) to make them sportier/faster. They would hack the holy hell out of their cars' components, engine management system included. These guys never understood that they were niche and that they didn't represent the whole population or even a major percentage. They assumed that everyone person on the continent cared about Talons and such cars and complained when Mitsubishi wouldn't cater to their needs to add this or that component. Mitsubishi's thoughts were that most of their consumers weren't racers or hotrodders...they just wanted something sporty. This is a similar thing with computers. We, the computer users that use Linux, do not represent the whole. We'd like to, yeah, but we don't. Until we do or until we have a majority stake, we won't see much progress, IMO. There has to be demand. This is probably a marketing issue, also. When's the last time you saw a bonifide Linux commercial?

This is true. Most users don't know there is a alternative other than a Apple Mac. Most people are just like you say, when it works they use it and when it stops, they take it someone to get it fixed. Same as a car. Most people don't know that when the oil light comes on, it means stop right then, not 30 minutes up the road at 70 mph. At that point, low or no oil is no longer the issue.

I do think that if some really good distro would advertise Linux, things could change. I even think there could be enough people that would rather pay $50.00 for Linux than spend more than that on M$. Me, I would pay for Linux. M$ couldn't pay me to run their crap.

Having Linux pre-installed would be good to. That makes a HUGE difference.

Originally Posted by cascade9 Xboxs are glorified x86 computers

The Xbox 360 is a PPC machine, not x86.

I suppose my statement was a little bit much, maybe a slight over-exaggeration.
I know Windows is around for more than just games, and it has its purpose. I currently
work at a University that is "purely" Windows-based (or at least the higher up IT
people would like to think so, the fact of the matter is that between MacOS and
Linux, the actual OS distribution is 50-50 (we did a could last year). However, since
I work here, I have to use Windows for some things, for example our dual-boot Mac
Pro's (Win7 and OS 10.6), we have a Ghost server (Running windows XP), and another
server floating around that is Windows Server 2008 (Its amazing how great of an OS
M$ can make when they dont release it early, and the developers say we are not
releasing this in 2005...). So yes, my previous statement is a little bit over the
top, but sometimes it kinda makes me wonder. I mean, yes M$ does come pre-installed
on most PC's, which leads some people to believe that nothing else exists in the
world other than Windows. I feel very sorry for these people and feel that some of
them need to be enlightened, however there are also some people (my grandparents)
where if you installed a linux system on their computer, they would be forever lost,
because Windows is what they have gotten used to, and they cant *understand* the
existence of another OS.

So all in all, yes M$ is around for more than just games, however on an unrelated note,
I am glad to see OS's like Ubuntu being offer pre-installed by some laptop manufacturers.
I realize my signature may say otherwise, but it is definitely a move in the right
direction in my opinion.

I had better stop before I ramble some more.

Enjoy

P.S. As far as Everything needing to be configured in Linux, that is ALL a distribution
choice. Yes, OS's like Slackware and Gentoo may require tinkering, however there are
many distro's that specialize in pre-configuring things for you, just like Windows

Originally Posted by MrCode The Xbox 360 is a PPC machine, not x86.

OK. Xboxs are glorified PPC computers. Same meaning, IMO.

Let's face it, guys- MS products saturates the market not because they are good and preferred, but because of MS's heavy-handed business practices. If the average schmoe doesn't know of an alternative to Winders, it's largely because MS tries to corner the market, not just by advertising, but by strong-arming computer manufacturers to us MS and MS only. That in turn assures that software developers will cater to MS products, since MS products have the lion's share of the market. It's a vicious cycle created by MS's dominance- and that dominance is not a result of having a superior product, but rather has been created artificially by MS's monopolistic and often unethical business practices.

The average Joe does not realize that the computer problems which they experience are often not really a "computer problem" but are instead a result of their OS's malfunctioning. Their 'puter slows down or acts dysfunctional, they take it in for a "repair". The repair is usually re-installing or fixing Win-D'ohs. After a few bouts of that scenario, they replace their old "tired" computer, with a newer, more powerful one...with a newer Winders OS...which is more resource hungry than the one it replaced, so the consumer notices little benefit from the improved specs of their new 'puter- and the same scenario of dysfunction/"repairs" starts all over again.

Then there's the fact that Win-D'ohs never seems to get it right...which I believe is intentional- as no one would ever buy a new OS if their old one worked very well. MS is like the government: They create a problem, and then offer the solution to that problem, which everyone is now crying for. If they fully solved the problem, there would be little need for their services. Keep proffering partial solutions and unrealiztic promises, and the people keep coming back for more, in the hopes that the new/next/great/fixed offering will offer a better solution than the last solution.

Every time a new solution is proffered, and changes made, the ancillary "administrations" (software manufacturers; hardware mfgs, etc.) get a piece of the pie by changing and adapting their products to accommodate MS's changes.

On the other hand...Linux just works, and offers real solutions without the planned obsolescence.

And let us not forget the power of Linux which is available through the CLI/scripting, etc. which allows us to fully utilize the power of our computers without needing specialized software for every little thing (and hoping that that software has the features that we require).

Originally Posted by SilverBack My 2�0„4. Computers are for computing. If you want to play games why not buy a xbox or something that would give you _real_ gaming experience?

Good advise, but I'd recommend PS2 or PS3 instead of xbox.

Originally Posted by unixfool You can't customize an Xbox like you can a PC, for one. Ever add 8GB of RAM to an Xbox? How about upgrading a vid card in an Xbox?

The argument is quite ridiculous. Better/more powerful hardware does not guarantee better games. Flexible hardware configuration actually introduces problems (that'll ruin the fun) for both users/developers.

I'd recommend to drop "consoles vs pc" discussion - the thread is already useless enough without extra flamewar.

Originally Posted by MrCode The Xbox 360 is a PPC machine, not x86.

That is why I said 'Xbox' not Xbox 360'.

Originally Posted by SigTerm The argument is quite ridiculous. Better/more powerful hardware does not guarantee better games. Flexible hardware configuration actually introduces problems (that'll ruin the fun) for both users/developers. I'd recommend to drop "consoles vs pc" discussion - the thread is already useless enough without extra flamewar.

If its a useless thread, why are you posting here?

Unixfools arguement is not 'ridiculous'. RAM might not matter a huge amount in a lot of cases, but the video card a makes a huge difference. The extra power of (even older) computer video cards is superior to the video capabilites of the PS2/PS3 and Xbox/Xbox360 systems. Even a few years ago that was true-

http://au.gamespot.com/features/6202...on-now-with-pc

Upgrade a newer video card, you would be able to push the AA and AF even harder.

Sure, flexable hardware can cause problems, but I'd rather deal with possible problems than being locked into owning console XXXXX forever to play old games. Thats not so much of a problem with computers, I've played DOS games from 1994 on Win7.....

Originally Posted by cascade9 Upgrade a newer video card, you would be able to push the AA and AF even harder.

I purchase games to PLAY them, not to "push AA/AF". If you want to have powerful hardware to get 1 pixel picture difference, it is your choice, but it is not gaming.
AA/AF doesn't improve actual game and doesn't improve the picture that much - for extra buck all you get is a very insignificant graphical difference that can only be found with magnifying glass, and you'll have to deal with OS as the "bonus". You could as well flush money down the toilet. Currently there's no game on the market that is worth purchasing a powerful PC (well, unless you're an MMORPG addict or require very specific niche games). PC does have decent titles but they are either fairly old (released up to 10 years ago) or don't require much GPU/CPU power. The best game I ever played was released on PS2 (found it by accident a while ago) and it surely was superior to all the advertised "next gen" "graphically superior" "AAA" crap released on PC during last few years.

Originally Posted by cascade9 Unixfools arguement is not 'ridiculous'.

It is. It is based on assumption that powerful hardware is absolutely required to produce better game.

Originally Posted by cascade9 Thats not so much of a problem with computers,

It IS a problem on computers because eventually game may stop working because of operating system upgrade (certain features will be eventually dropped and backward compatibility will be incomplete). Certain older titles (Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment) require manual game hacking in order to disable graphic artifacts and it is nearly impossible to make something like Daggerfall/Messiah to work right. I had to hack/reverse engineer few older titles manually to make them work without bugs - which definitely isn't the sign of "superior gaming platform".

Anyway, have fun "discussing" without me. I'm outta here.

Originally Posted by Sumguy On the other hand...Linux just works.

I certainly don't think so, sire.

Originally Posted by PrinceSharma I certainly don't think so, sire.

I disagree. It works here. Actually, it satisfies all my computer needs. Linux is the only OS I have. If Linux didn't work, I'd have to have something else installed to deal with what Linux can't do.

All that and I use Gentoo. Supposedly the most difficult to install and maintain. While the install isn't easy like some distros, it sure is easy to maintain. It is certainly better than dealing with rpms and such.

I understand what you're talking about dalek, I'm also a Linux freak but I generally refrain from saying that Linux in general just works. Coz' I know it's almost impossible to satisfy everybody's needs.
And yeah, Gentoo O' my God...I'm still not there sire.

Originally Posted by PrinceSharma I understand what you're talking about dalek, I'm also a Linux freak but I generally refrain from saying that Linux in general just works. Coz' I know it's almost impossible to satisfy everybody's needs. And yeah, Gentoo O' my God...I'm still not there sire.

My brother runs XP. I have neighbors that have other M$ variants. The funny thing is, mine works better and more consistently than theirs. Example. My brother bought a Canon camera. Nothing real fancy, about mid range I guess. The only way to get Windoze to see it was to plug the camera up, turn it on then reboot the puter. If done any other way, it would NOT see the camera. We tried different versions of software but nothing changed. I could bring the camera down here to my Linux box and download all day long. I tried that to make sure it was not the camera that had a issue since it did it ever since it was new.

I have ran into numerous other things like this. That is just one example. The only thing I have seen that doesn't work well with Linux is a Lexmark printer. That is why I don't own one either. I use HP for mine and it works great, cheaper too.

My brother after many years of screwing around with M$ wants me to build him a new rig with Linux installed. Why? Because he is tired of the crazy stuff M$ does and having to pay for the pain to boot. Let's not even start on the viruses and such.

Gentoo does rock.

Originally Posted by PrinceSharma I certainly don't think so, sire.

It does for me, commoner!

Frustration/annoyance/disgust with Windows is what prompted me to try Linux...and once I tried it, the difference was just overwhelming. It did exactly what I needed it to do, without problems and hassles, and rather than having to battle my OS to try and get it to do what I need done, Linux is a tool that helps me to utilize the power of my computer, because Linux was designed first and foremost to be of use, as opposed to being concerned with hiding it's workings and being engineered for brain-dead idiots.

From day-one with Linux, I virtually never returned to Winders except when I had to make a long-distance call on my Magicjack- and since my MJ has expired, I've had no reason to ever use Win-D'ohs again.

If Linux had not been available, I don't know what I would have done- I probably would have all but eliminated using a computer, because Windows was just not worth all of the frustration and trouble. There's no reason in this day and age that an operating system shouldn't be able to handle simple things like internet browsing; email and handling music and video files, while being invisible and trouble-free. Linux can do this par excellance....Windows can't, because if they ever allowed it to get to that point, sales of the next MS OS would plummet dramatically; MS has to keep offering "solutions", and in order to have a market for solutions, there must needs be problems. When one realizes that MS is the problem, they switch to Linux. Problem solved. (And unlike MS, the solution to one problem doesn't create 20 new problems).[I'm a staunch free-market capitalist, but the best way to ensure one's success is to have superior product, rather than creating problems for which one sells solutions, and using strong-arm tactic to manipulate the market- which in turn builds ill-will]

There is peace in my domain, since switching to Linux. (Hmmmm...they need to come out with a distro named "Horse Racing"- the operating system of kings! )

Now I know why those who adopt Linux love it so much- in short: Stability, power, straight-forwardness and competence at what it does; Yet allowing for a broad range of users, from ignorant noobs like myself, to full-blown computer geeks. (So add "versatility")

I dreaded booting up (and rebooting at least once a day) my 'puter with Winders...but I get a feeling and peace, tranquility and warmth when I see the Plymouth screen......

As a non-geek, I really have no prejudices- I'm just stating my experiences and what works best for me. (And if those things don't work best for everyone, it is not because of any flaw in Linux, but, as previously stated, because of MS's dominance in the market).

Your sire has spoken!

Originally Posted by SigTerm I purchase games to PLAY them, not to "push AA/AF". If you want to have powerful hardware to get 1 pixel picture difference, it is your choice, but it is not gaming. AA/AF doesn't improve actual game and doesn't improve the picture that much - for extra buck all you get is a very insignificant graphical difference that can only be found with magnifying glass, and you'll have to deal with OS as the "bonus". You could as well flush money down the toilet. Currently there's no game on the market that is worth purchasing a powerful PC (well, unless you're an MMORPG addict or require very specific niche games). PC does have decent titles but they are either fairly old (released up to 10 years ago) or don't require much GPU/CPU power. The best game I ever played was released on PS2 (found it by accident a while ago) and it surely was superior to all the advertised "next gen" "graphically superior" "AAA" crap released on PC during last few years.

If you think that the screenshots I posted a link to in my last post only show very insignificant graphical difference, I'm very suprised. I dont know of anyone that cant see a clear difference between the 'PC' and console shots. Its not something that you need to study to see.....

Yes, there have been a lot of junk titles on all systems. But since as you have said the newer games have been going to as much eye-candy graphics as possible, all those jaggies on the console versions do detract from the overall gaming experience.

Originally Posted by SigTerm It is. It is based on assumption that powerful hardware is absolutely required to produce better game.

That is not what unixfool said at all, and is an assumption that you are making, not unixfool.

Originally Posted by SigTerm It IS a problem on computers because eventually game may stop working because of operating system upgrade (certain features will be eventually dropped and backward compatibility will be incomplete). Certain older titles (Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment) require manual game hacking in order to disable graphic artifacts and it is nearly impossible to make something like Daggerfall/Messiah to work right. I had to hack/reverse engineer few older titles manually to make them work without bugs - which definitely isn't the sign of "superior gaming platform".

With consoles, games might stop working...becvause the console died. At least with computers its not hard to get a newer one (and not some ancient 2nd hand replacement), and there is normally a way to get older games going with newer hardware.