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Old 06-18-2017, 03:29 PM   #16
enorbet
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I find this topic to be ignorant and insulting to the whole human race, plust it is the second time this thread has been posted by OP. The earliest stone tools predate humans being accurately dated to well over 1 Million years ago. Sticks and Stones were all we had for not thousands, not tens of thousands, but many hundreds of thousands of years. There were extremely few distractions especially once large gatherings like City States began to form and grow. Not only were many generations handing dfown knowledge and experience but masons were revered because of the importance of their work. Once rulers who were Divine Right by the way and thus had the reverence of a large percentage of their subjects wanted something built, everyone pitched in.

Myth #1 - It was NOT slaves who built Egypt but a dynamic labor force including simple labor all the way up to highly skilled, well-paid artisans.

Myth #2 - Those who say today that it couldn't be done today are stymied by the sheer size of the project, in cost, time and size of work force. Most modern projects, even major tunnels and skyscrapers have work forces measured in hundreds, tops and last a few years at best, and on a low-0bid budget. It is impossible for such men to think in terms of unlimited funding, tens of thousands in the work force, and a twenty year project.

Myth #3 - We can't figure out how because aliens, advanced technology yada yada yada was lost. What is far more reasonable is that generations of large workforces who had nothing else but stone, wood, and ropes and generations of experience and high pay developed techniques that were forgotten once stacking stones became obsolete from inventions of concrete and steel. The whole aliens thing is absolutely ludicrous. I don't doubt life exists all over but traveling between stars is a HUGE endeavor. A race capable of such a thing, and we don't know if it is even possible, would view us like we view microbes - insignificant, uninteresting and not worth the cost to visit.

The odds are vastly in favor of manmade materials and techniques appropriate to the age and later forgotten just like the extremely simple formula for concrete was after Rome fell and it was forgotten for 300 years despite how important it was and the large number of examples that still exist today.
 
Old 06-18-2017, 03:52 PM   #17
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there are many serious books about ancient egypt and lot of scientific interests.

book ex.:
https://www.amazon.de/Lost-Technolog.../dp/1591431026
 
Old 06-18-2017, 05:56 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Xeratul View Post
What do you think about the unrealistic theory of aliens or semi-gods? - it cannot be, right?
Preliminary investigations have ruled out any life at all, much less intelligent life, anywhere in our solar system except earth. And the closest star is over four light years away--way too far to travel.

I'll confess that I thoroughly enjoyed Buzz Aldrin's novel Encounter with Tiber in which he proposed a way. But humans are still much, much more plausible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
I find this topic to be ignorant and insulting to the whole human race, ... The earliest stone tools predate humans being accurately dated to well over 1 Million years ago. Sticks and Stones were all we had for not thousands, not tens of thousands, but many hundreds of thousands of years.
OK, you've clearly stated your religious position on the matter. That's fine. You have yours, I have mine. Though I'm guessing that you resent me calling your belief religious. (Why? What does "religious" mean if not what you've stated?)

The frustration is that all dating methods are VERY INACCURATE, so I don't see the wisdom in basing any firm convictions on them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Those who say today that it couldn't be done today are stymied by the sheer size of the project, in cost, time and size of work force.
Have any modern building been built with blocks weighing over 100 tons, that were moved many miles from their query site (like those in Peru)? Have any polygonal walls been built in modern times where the monstrously heavy blocks fit so close together you literally can't fit a needle between them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
The odds are vastly in favor of manmade materials and techniques appropriate to the age and later forgotten ...
Exactly! That's my view too. And it was the worldwide flood that made man forget these advanced techniques and technologies.
 
Old 06-18-2017, 06:03 PM   #19
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@ Xeratul - Sorry friend but that book does not qualify as serious, let alone scholarly since it leaps from random data to unwarranted conclusions. It would be as if someone noticing that, for one example, the coastline of the UK follows Fractal rules concluding that some culture "obviously" cut and dredged the coastline to suit Sacred Fractal Geometry. It's simply a non-sequitur and obviously agenda driven.
 
Old 06-18-2017, 06:39 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenJackson View Post
<snip>
OK, you've clearly stated your religious position on the matter. That's fine. You have yours, I have mine. Though I'm guessing that you resent me calling your belief religious. (Why? What does "religious" mean if not what you've stated?)
While I'm not emotionally aghast at your statement, I do find it unfounded and wrong. Religion relies on Faith and logic be damned. Science relies on evidence and logic with assumptions and sacred cows being damned. That's your choice and you have every right to make it. I'll stick with tested data over ancient texts written by superstitious people any day, thank you very much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenJackson View Post
The frustration is that all dating methods are VERY INACCURATE, so I don't see the wisdom in basing any firm convictions on them.
Sorry to burst your bubble but the above emboldened phrase is completely and provably false. See Religion Meets Science here - --- Reliability of Radiometric Dating --- It is in fact so obviously a falsehood you risk being a purveryor of FUD, even a proliferator of lies, but certainly uninformed.

Just in case you choose to not follow the link and actually read the actual (and tested and verified) percentage of error, consider this. Even if you are at your best a weekend handyman unschooled in carpentry, how good would your work likely be if your ruler, yard or meter stick, was even 10% off? where inch one was perhaps only 90% of a proper inch and inch 3 was actually 1.1 inch? Not only would your work suffer but so would your reputation if you chose to continue to use that ruler, which might be OK for building dog houses and lawn whirlygigs, but it is highly doubtful you could get a Contractor's License and for good reason.... yet you assume some of the brightest men in the world would choose to continue to use a measuring device that is orders of magnitude more inaccurate. How much sense does that make? Maybe now you will be motivated to discover the actual "room for error" by following the link or doing your favorite web search for something like "radiometric dating accuracy"..


Quote:
Originally Posted by KenJackson View Post
Have any modern building been built with blocks weighing over 100 tons, that were moved many miles from their query site (like those in Peru)? Have any polygonal walls been built in modern times where the monstrously heavy blocks fit so close together you literally can't fit a needle between them?
Not to my knowledge but that's because we found other, easier and cheaper means to accomplish the same thing such as the Pantheon Dome in Rome still after almost 2000 years the largest unsupported dome on Planet Earth.... that and once Divine Right rulers became a thing of the past, National Budgets were not at the whim or disposal of just one man.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KenJackson View Post
Exactly! That's my view too. And it was the worldwide flood that made man forget these advanced techniques and technologies.
There is ZERO evidence Earth was ever a Water World. Knowing The World as we do now, a planet roughly 8,000 miles in diameter and possessing a surface area of 196,900,000 square miles, there never was a worldwide flood. Most ancient cultures have such Flood myths because they considered themselves as The World and since early civilizations most often were built very close to water for the obvious practical reasons, they were commonly subject to flooding.
 
Old 06-18-2017, 07:41 PM   #21
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Religion relies on Faith and logic be damned.
That's an error that many atheists make. In fact the Lord Himself constantly appealed to logic. But that's not topic of this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Sorry to burst your bubble but the above emboldened phrase is completely and provably false. ... --- Reliability of Radiometric Dating --- ... It is in fact so obviously a falsehood you risk being a purveryor of FUD, even a proliferator of lies, but certainly uninformed.
Wow. Arrogance and religion. A bad mix.
You mentioned stone tools "accurately dated to well over 1 Million years". The stone from which the tool was made is probably that old or much older. But do you believe construction of the tool was dated with radiometric dating? More than likely the tool was found in a stratum believed to be a million years old. The accuracy of atomic decay wouldn't convey to strata even if the flood hadn't thoroughly stirred the strata.

Besides, what does a million-year old tool prove? How does it even suggest that someone didn't have advanced technology a few thousand years ago? Does no one on earth use stone tools in today's technologically advance world?


Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
... we found other, easier and cheaper means to accomplish the same thing such as the Pantheon Dome in Rome still after almost 2000 years the largest unsupported dome on Planet Earth....
I'm not familiar with that dome, but some have proposed that some Roman ruins were actually built long before Rome. But this track misses the point.

The builders of the polygonal walls of Peru and the pyramids of Egypt certainly could have chosen to use smaller, more convenient blocks. And they likely could have poured concrete. (In fact in Peru it looks for all the world like they poured andesite.) Also in Peru, they certainly didn't have to cut eleven oddly-shaped corners in one huge block, perfectly matched to its neighbors. The fact that they did suggests it wasn't nearly as hard for them as it would be for us.

Anybody who tries to minimize this either hasn't looked at it or isn't using any logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
There is ZERO evidence Earth was ever a Water World.
What a silly statement. There's overwhelming evidence of the flood. But that's not what this thread is about.
 
Old 06-18-2017, 09:53 PM   #22
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It can be rather astonishing just how much information about an ancient culture can become lost, and how quickly. Many historians chafe at the amount of information about our own culture is now being kept only in ephemeral electronic form, which will not stand the test of time.
 
Old 06-19-2017, 07:29 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
While I'm not emotionally aghast at your statement, I do find it unfounded and wrong. Religion relies on Faith and logic be damned.
that is a statement of ignorance.


Quote:

Science relies on evidence and logic
with assumptions and sacred cows being damned. That's your choice and you have every right to make it. I'll stick with tested data over ancient texts written by superstitious people any day, thank you very much.
Science can be bias so its findings will always lean towards its beliefs to try and prove them true or make it look like they are. Just like that video said anything outside of what they want one to know they suppress it or do not take it into account because it messes up their beliefs.

What did God do to you to make you hate Him so much?

Last edited by BW-userx; 06-19-2017 at 07:31 AM.
 
Old 06-19-2017, 10:25 AM   #24
sundialsvcs
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I believe that the original question did not belong to the F&R Mega-Thread ... although you are free to please take it up over there. I believe that it had to do with the technology of ancient Egypt.

Were it not for the Rosetta Stone, the entire language of Egypt, very-literate though they were, might have been lost to time. We still do not have solid evidence of how they built their pyramids, and many artifacts can be misinterpreted. (David Macaulay wrote a hilarious book, Motel of the Mysteries, which presented many mistaken interpretations of ... a toilet seat.) A certain artifact described as a "sled" could, if one had at least eight of them, be strapped around a square or rectangular stone to allow the stone to be rolled.

Exposure to the elements is also a factor. In a museum project that I worked on a few years ago, an unidentified artifact was mis-identified until cleaning revealed a partial patent-number.

Could the Egyptians have known about electricity, and we just don't know it? It's certainly possible. But, did they? Unfortunately we may never know.

The Hebrew "Ark of the Covenant," we now know, was one helluva electrolytic capacitor, capable of accumulating thousands of volts of electricity as it was carried around in the dry desert climate. Every now and then, a thunderous discharge could have occurred between it's "cherubim's wings." Anyone who touched it directly could be electrocuted. (It was carried using insulating wooden rods, and set on an also-insulating platform which would have mostly preserved its static charge in situ.) But, did the Hebrews "know about" electricity?

The electrical and chemical principles that Europeans take so much credit for "first discovering" are not, in fact, that uncommon. It's unreasonable, also, to suppose that these people were mankind's first experimenters ... indeed, scientific(!) experimenters. When discoveries were abstract and could be committed "merely to writing," such as, say, "algebra," we know a whole lot more about them because writing can better stand the test of time. Experiments concerning physical phenomena of any sort, on the other hand, are fairly unlikely to survive centuries. Likewise, any tangible evidence of their use or application.

Time, most unfortunately, is yet another thing that very much blinds us. We simply do not know. And/Or, we might be totally wrong, and not know it. That's simply the rules of this game.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 06-19-2017 at 10:30 AM.
 
Old 06-19-2017, 11:04 AM   #25
DavidMcCann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenJackson View Post
Some people, even civil engineers, believe that the Giza Pyramids couldn't be duplicated even with today's best technology.

Have any modern building been built with blocks weighing over 100 tons, that were moved many miles from their query site (like those in Peru)? Have any polygonal walls been built in modern times where the monstrously heavy blocks fit so close together you literally can't fit a needle between them?

The builders of the polygonal walls of Peru and the pyramids of Egypt certainly could have chosen to use smaller, more convenient blocks.
1. Using smaller blocks would not have been more convenient. For a Stone Age or Bronze Age culture, the real problem is quarrying the rock; the larger the block, the easier it is to cut it free. Shaping the blocks is easy. The Egyptians used hammers of dolerite to crush the surface of the softer building stone: slow but certain. We can see their techniques from surviving tools and unfinished items. And we can see how they shifted things from their own illustrated accounts of the process.

2. All of this has been tested by experimental archeology. The effectiveness of the Egyptian shaping technique was tested in the Aswan quarry and a similar experiment was carried out on Easter Island. The Egyptian records say the smaller Karnak obelisk was completed in 7 months; the modern workers would have taken 9 according to the experiment, obviously being less experienced. The transport of large stones on sledges has also been demonstrated in recent times. Then there are the various Egyptian obelisks that were brought to Europe in pre-industrial times: the obelisk in St Peter's Square (330 tonnes) was taken to Rome in 37 AD and moved to its present site in 1586.

Incidentally, how did religion get dragged in here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Religion relies on Faith and logic be damned.
No. Real religion is based on the cumulative experience of humanity. Obviously you are handicaped by living among Christians, who do rely purely on unsubstantiated assertions, so I excuse you: had I been raised in the US Bible Belt, I too might have become an atheist in reaction.
 
Old 06-19-2017, 12:06 PM   #26
enorbet
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I agree with sundialsvcs' above post in several areas. One that this thread is getting dragged off topic and anything specific to religion and not having to do with evidence for or against ancient technology belongs in the Faith and Religion Mega Thread. I also agree that it is easy to misinterpret sketchy data and in the subject of this thread there is a valid question as to just how much aware of electricity the ancient Egyptians actually were, whether they guessed lightning had any similarities to static electricity which they surely experienced as that does not take exotic materials nor even any planning. I simply find it absurd to jump from a single artifact that may or may not have been an electrochemical cell (not really a battery but many would call it so) all the way to mega machines and cities lighted by electricity. That is "a bridge too far".



Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post
<snipped some great stuff about actual ancient capabilities in Egypt and elsewhere>
The very fact that similar technologies grew out of many disparate and vastly separated cultures demonstrates that quarrying, moving, and shaping stone with a high degree of accuracy naturally follows and that modern high technology or alien intervention are ridiculously large leaps compared to that natural progression under somewhat similar circumstances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post
Incidentally, how did religion get dragged in here?
From my POV, as usual it got dragged in as soon as anything "spooky mystical' gets mentioned. In this case I think it was asserting first that "God told them (ancient cultures) how" and later that "God took it away with a worldwide flood".

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post
No. Real religion is based on the cumulative experience of humanity. Obviously you are handicaped by living among Christians, who do rely purely on unsubstantiated assertions, so I excuse you: had I been raised in the US Bible Belt, I too might have become an atheist in reaction.
While i do understand and agree with you that the USA is called home by a lot of the "mumbo jumbo" crowd and maybe more than most places due to how many misfits were either forced out or chose to leave their original homelands for the New Frontier, I take strong offense at referring to my position as merely "a reaction". Long before I had read much of the variety of religions, like all children, I simply observed life and how those around me lived it. My Mother tells a story of when I was 5 and asked what the Sun was made of and how it got there and when she said, "God made it and it's kind of like a ball of fire" and I asked, "Why didn't he make it electric?" You see, even at an early age I was making my own conclusions based on how I am wired to see the world and NOT simply in reaction to the Superstitious.
 
Old 06-19-2017, 12:13 PM   #27
enorbet
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Real quick, Real simple BW-userx

1- prove me wrong that Religion is devoid of Logic but please do it in the proper thread.

2- Since I am convinced no God exists, and at the very least if I'm mistaken in that, he/she/it is absent from Earthly events, it is absurd to imagine I hate something that either doesn't exist or doesn't matter.
 
Old 06-19-2017, 12:25 PM   #28
enorbet
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@ KenJackson - Your premise about the abilities of the ancient's handling of stone has been disproved many times and David McCann did a nice synopsis here, so get over it, get educated and put on some Big Boy pants. The same goes for your wild imaginings about the definition of what qualifies as scientific evidence and the quality of radiometric dating, although I did find the assertion that the worldwide flood not only covered the entire surface of the earth but mixed up miles of substrate globally particularly amusing. Are you saying your God is a Trickster?

Since you tied in The Flood with how ancient Egyptian mega technology left zero definitive evidence, it is your responsibility to provide citation that any manner of worldwide flood ever occurred. You can choose to do it here or in the F&R Mega Thread as it fits in both places, at least, according to you.
 
Old 06-19-2017, 02:26 PM   #29
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@ KenJackson - ..., so get over it, get educated and put on some Big Boy pants.
That may violate the rules of the forum.

Even if it doesn't, I don't enjoy discussions with people that fight to win their point demanding proof where there obviously can't be any and demanding acceptance of their "proof" as if it's the final word. And I'm thoroughly bored by juvenile insults from a ball game. Insults are no substitute for logic. I'm not in it for arrogance or hate.

I wonder why anyone would go to the effort of cutting hard andesite and basalt to intricate jigsaw patterns with shocking accuracy and smoothness. (Especially in Peru, but the Egyptian pyramids have their own wonders.) The rocks would have to be deftly jockeyed into position, but some of them are BIG and HEAVY--much heavier than you can legally transport on an American interstate.

(I can't seem to display an image here. Apparently that feature has been disabled.)

I also don't understand why it's so offensive to understand that the people who built these incredible structures were more advanced than we are today.

(Actually, I suspect atheists really fear the spiritual truth that physical truth might infer. But that's for another thread.)
 
Old 06-19-2017, 02:34 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Real quick, Real simple BW-userx

1- prove me wrong that Religion is devoid of Logic but please do it in the proper thread.
blah blah blah you're so stuck on your own thoughts (closed minded) that'd be like telling you where the sink is but still not being about to get you to drink a glass of water.

Quote:

2- Since I am convinced no God exists, and at the very least if I'm mistaken in that, he/she/it is absent from Earthly events, it is absurd to imagine I hate something that either doesn't exist or doesn't matter.
that is why, or should it be, is that why - anyways - you're away going into the thread for REGION. yet seeings how your belief system does not have a God in Heaven but oneself as a god instead - and using that thread to try and spread your region within it. so you hate what you do not fully understand so you always mock region whenever someone so much as even slightly hints anything remotely about it having something to do with a GOD. like in this thread.

so there has to be something within your psyche that has had something to do with GOD that sent you into hate mode about it.

Last edited by BW-userx; 06-19-2017 at 02:36 PM.
 
  


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