sundialsvcs - Can you truly not see that you are using deflection and straw-man argument here? You keep falling back on high radiation levels that you apparently assume exist, and insist do, and even said we can't measure them and that is just preposterous to begin with, but is the core of your argument even though it is inconsistent with reality. Radiation levels have been monitored inside fusion blasts here on Earth and didn't become "overwhelmed" any more than there being an upper limit on measuring electrical voltage. In fact the digital revolution and miniaturization which operates at vastly lower voltages have to be "hardened" compared to earlier electronics because they are now at levels where such fields as the Van Allen Belts become a significant proportion of the operating levels of such equipment, which speaks to how low those levels are. Probes have orbited Mercury and Venus and even landed on Venus a vastly higher (but measurable) radiation level than that of the Belts or the Moon. Do kindly realize that some of your assumptions about radiation levels and their measurement is mistaken.

Then you ignore or refuse to comment on the most disambiguous evidence, that of the LRRRs placed there in exact locations and publicly available. Radar, including that by the Soviets tracked Moon flights including the Apollo Mission and they had the exact opposite agenda to the USand would have dearly loved to have caught NASA in a lie or coverup, especially since insiders then and the public now knows that they covered up plenty but they didn't fake events that they knew had any possibility of being revealed as a lie. We behaved in a similar fashion though substantially more public.

So I'm confused now, what did you mean by

Also I'd like to know why you think moon rocks should remain radioactive after they're no longer being hit by ionizing radiation?
I'm not trying to villify you, but I think you have some incorrect ideas about radiation.

Gentlebeings, there's a vast thermonuclear furnace out there, and the only reason why we are able to sunbathe is because of our planet's magnetosphere, which deflects most of the stuff that this furnace spews out. This is the stream of energy that powers the Northern Lights. It has been known to distort the magnetosphere, exposing geostationary satellites that are normally somewhat-protected by it, and to blast those satellites out of commission. It is, in other words, an extremely hostile place out there.

If you notice the graph from the lunar radiation probe that we sent up a few years ago, you'll first of all notice that it's on an exponential scale: powers of ten, and that there are extreme spikes. But you'll also observe that NASA conveniently-but-inexplicably divided the figures by /yr, as though they were discussing a radiation source (such as an X-ray machine) which produces a steady amount of radiation that, say, a security-officer at an airport might well be exposed to "for a year." But the Sun is a thoroughly unpredictable beast, and the amounts of solar-wind energy that it emits varies considerably. Beyond the magnetosphere, there is n-o-t-h-i-n-g to attenuate it.

To this we insert ... a guy in nothing more than a very thin space suit, walking outside of his spacecraft (in +200ºC heat, by the way), playing golf on television. Remaining there, so we were told and so we believed, for days.

He made it through the Van Allen belts by "traveling really fast," and of course once he got beyond them there was no radiation anywhere . . . He blissfully travelled to his destination, and back again, ostensibly receiving no more than a dental dose. None of these astronauts died of radiation sickness.

What that lunar radiation probe told us was that we can't live there. The Van Allen probes told us that we can't get through ... at least, not with people aboard. That we don't, even today, possess the technology to do any of these things. But what's standing in NASA's way now is: "the official story," which they absolutely cannot give up.

If they could, then "a successful landing on the Moon" would today be a prize that we would be pursuing, trying still to fulfill President Kennedy's vision, albeit fifty instead of six years after his death. And, in fact, it is a prize that we are pursuing. But, as we strive to do this "for real, this time," the convenient fiction of the early 1970's stands squarely in our path.

I'm quite sure that the Apollo people were sincere. They certainly went to a tremendous effort to make a national dream come true, and they basked in the glory for a long time until people started seriously asking questions. Now, they're stuck: between the harsh physical realities of the place to which they wish to travel, and a once-convenient non-truth of their own making. The refusal to "come clean" could jeopardize future astronaut's lives.

True, but solar flares and Cornal Mass Ejections don't happen all the time. So astronauts are exposed to lots of comsic rays.

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/heart-...onauts-n618116

As a anecdote.

Back when we landed on the Moon.

Was not our economy doing better, and Nasa had better funding? Back in 1969?
Not like today where private corporations have to take up the space program
mantle because our federal govt can't afford a space program any more.

It seems certain things were more affordable back then. Even if the technology
was outdated. If the percentage of funding for Nasa was matched now to what it
was back then. Then maybe we would be playing golf on Mars instead of the Moon.

The Moon would just be a staging point, to this uneducated biker.

Edit: PS. I guess all those space station dudes are just micro waved meat Popsicles?

2nd Edit: Mmmmm. Popsicles! Happy Thanksgiving, everyone.

Yep! It's turkey time!

Those very brave people on the Space Station are in Low Earth Orbit, and therefore mostly protected by the magnetosphere. Nevertheless, there have been times when El Sol has conspired to create conditions even at these altitudes which could be lethal to human life. It has been known to disrupt electrical power grids here on the surface.

"Human life," unfortunately, is a most fragile thing. It is especially intolerant of ionizing radiation.

Personally, I want to see us go to the Moon. I want to see us perfect anti-gravity spacecraft (the so-called "flying saucer") that would be able to go into space and return from space without the use of rockets. (I think that such technology does now exist, although in highly-classified and probably not-yet-practical form.) I want to see us find a way to solve the radiation problem: to be able to go to the Moon and beyond, "for real, this time." And maybe, put a Kennedy fifty-cent piece on the lunar soil. It would be most fitting . . .

I have no idea whether we will be able to walk outside of whatever gets us there. I have no idea what sort of technology will achieve this, nor if I will be alive to see it. But, I want us to go there. For real, this time.

Do I need my tinfoil_hat or not?

So, it turns out that reflectors were placed/soft dropped by unmanned probes as well, and is not considered definitive proof that men were on the moon - from the wikipedia article.

Far from being "in [tin-foil-hat ...] denial," I am ... "impatient!"

I want a human astronaut to not only be "on the Moon," but to Tweet from there! To post to Facebook from there! To trigger an enormous strobe-light that a hundred thousand anxious amateur astronomers can (by gawd ...) see in their scopes!

Knowing that our present-day technology cannot yet(!) overcome the obstacles that still lie between us and our (first ...) destination, I don't want for us to continue to pander to an illusion(!) that, today, is merely standing in our way.

Yes, I want to fulfill President Kennedy's dream, even if it may turn out that he was "off by a few decades." (And let it be an international accomplishment.) Even if I'm destined to be looking down upon that accomplishment from some heavenly cloud somewhere, I still want to see it done. "For real, this time."

Here is a paper discussing radiation strength beyond Earth orbit, during the 1972 solar flare (i.e., worst case scenario), with figures in protons/cm^2 s. http://emmrem.unh.edu/papers/general/parsons.pdf


Does that mean you consider shielding with aluminum and polyethylene (e.g., as suggested here http://science1.nasa.gov/science-new...feb_radiation/) to be ineffective?

I'm still wondering about

Am I to conclude that sundialsvcs has me on "Ignore"? I have yet to see one word about the radiation data I posted (re: photos, etc.) let alone LRRR. Additionally the questions about vastly greater radiation on and around Venus and Mercury that we got data and graphics from as early as 1962. I don't mind if I'm ignored but it is telling that the data is ignored. It begins to smell like Sacred Cows.

As for "vilifying" I was brought up to trust that "only a friend will tell you when your face is dirty". Honest isn't the same as mean.

@enorbet, to answer at least part of your argument: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...2/#post5633948

Ie: LRRR isn't evidence that humans were on the moon.

Pardon me, Enorbet, but I do tend to (prefer to ...) "bow out" of a thread when I feel that there's really nothing more that I can say to it, beyond what I have already said. Beyond this, we can "agree to disagree," and thus clear the way for more productive threads ... such as the Faith & Religion Mega-Thread.

And, in this case, I rather think that I have (more than ...) reached that point.

- - -

But, to recap:

El Sol is a ferocious beast, quite capable of outbursts that displace the magnetosphere, disable geostationary satellites, and create a brand-new Van Allen Belt (only to subsequently blow it away ...).

Therefore: "beyond this, all the way to the Moon and on the surface of the Moon, there is no 'radiation problem' at all?" Naahhh... nothin' more than a dental X-ray ...

Chuckle ... Snort ... Guffaw ...

Gentlebeings, let us always(!) remember that the most-powerful force in the Universe is: P = Politics.
My only concern is simply this: Of this one thing we can be sure ... (unless we subscribe to "P"): "if 'whatever-it-is' causes such mayhem on Earth, then within just a few hours that same 'whatever-it-is' is gonna hit the Moon" ... this time without(!) any magnetosphere! When you "play golf," your golf-ball melts, and your golf-club is far too hot to touch.

(Far) better yet: to (suck up and ...) see to it that 'that day' never comes.

Our well-meaning(?) childhood predecessors had only one objective: they wanted to make JFK's dream come true, and, by gawd, they thought they did. They had no idea how future exploration would advance. Certainly, they knew (almost) nothing about semiconductor technology. They chose to go to very extraordinary means to put on not one but several "TV shows," and to embed these 'truths' into the ongoing American Canon™ ... even the Smithsonian Air & Space Museum.

"That was then. This is now."

Frankly, when our 21st Century explorers dare to go "where no man(!) has gone before," I want to give them the best possible chance, protected by the best available information. I quite-openly fear that "P" will rear its ugly head ("if it was good enough for Neil Armstrong, it's good enough for you!") and fry them.

None of us can change the actual conditions that exist in Deep Space. The only thing that we can control is the actual "awful(!) conditions" that our next Explorers will face ... and the preparations that we have dared to make in their behalf. I don't want to see them sacrificed in the name of "P".

- - -

Now, "I have said it." I'm going to bow-out at this point from this thread.

Pardon me, Enorbet, but I do tend to (prefer to ...) "bow out" of a thread when I feel that there's really nothing more that I can say to it, beyond what I have already said. Beyond this, we can "agree to disagree," and thus clear the way for more productive threads ... such as the Faith & Religion Mega-Thread.

And, in this case, I rather think that I have (more than ...) reached that point.

- - -

But, to recap: (and then some ...)

El Sol is a ferocious beast, thousands of times bigger and hotter than our own planet, and quite capable of outbursts that (for example): displace the magnetosphere, disable geostationary satellites, and create a brand-new Van Allen Belt (only to subsequently blow it away ...).

Therefore, against these very-blunt and oh-so physical realities, let us now (shall we?) reconsider ... "the official™ story" :

• "All the way to the Moon and on the surface of the Moon, there is no 'radiation problem' at all?"
• "Several of our 'Apollo Missions' encountered no problems at all, in spite having been staged in what we [now ...] know to have been 'solar maximums?'"

Chuckle ... Snort ... Guffaw ...

Of this one thing we can be sure ... (unless we subscribe to "P"): "if 'whatever-it-is', originating as it does from a thermonuclear source many thousands of times larger than our puny planet, causes such mayhem on Earth, then, within the space of just a few hours, that same 'whatever-it-is' is gonna hit the Moon" ... this time without(!) any magnetosphere!

Furthermore, we would be landing upon a Moon that has been exposed to this same onslaught, again without the benefit of any magnetic shielding whatsoever, for ... Unfathomable Time. (In other words: "radioactivity hell.")

And so, what are we supposed to be doing? Uh huh. Playing golf. Complete with a golf-cart.

Not just once, but several times. (At the very end of it, routinely.)

- - -

However, Gentlebeings, let us always(!) remember that the most-powerful force in the Universe is: P = Politics. And that this force is far more powerful, and far more pervasive, than any physical reality!

My only concern is simply this: Therefore: (unless we dare to stop it ...)

Hurry up and drag out 'that poem'. Say that they "touched the Face of God, etcetera..."

(Far) better yet: to (suck up and ...) see to it that 'that day' never comes.

Our well-meaning(?) childhood predecessors had only one objective: they wanted to make JFK's dream come true, and, by gawd, they thought they did. They had no idea how future exploration would advance. Certainly, they knew (almost) nothing about semiconductor technology. They chose to go to very extraordinary means to put on not one but several "TV shows," and to embed these 'truths' into the ongoing American Canon™ ... even the Smithsonian Air & Space Museum.

"That was then. This is now."

None of us can change the actual conditions that exist in Deep Space. The only thing that we can control is the actual "awful(!) conditions" that our next Explorers will face ... and the preparations that we have dared to make in their behalf. I don't want to see them sacrificed in the name of "P".

- - -

• I want to see them succeed in their 21st Century mission.
• I want to see them Tweet, and to Post, "By GAWD™," 'from The Lunar Surface!!"

And is that really so much to ask? (Koff, koff ...)

Therefore, I openly fear either one of these two possible outcomes:

1. That we will simply choose not to explore, lest we expose our explorers to anything that might seem contrary to: "in the 1970's, our astronauts played golf."
2. That we will subject future Explorers to a gruesome death, simply because we would not "Officially" admit that Neil Armstrong (et al...) didn't "confront this self-same thing, and swish blissfully right on by it."

- - -

Now, "I have said it." Please feel free to agree with me or not, but I have now exhausted this thread and I shall henceforth only focus my attention upon new ones. Good day to you ...

I truly don't get the relevance of your link to the opening post. More importantly, to my knowledge the technology did not yet exist for autonomous rovers that could accurately place prism reflectors at all let alone with exact location and orientation. Therefore since it is obvious that they were placed properly back then it is indeed evidence that humans placed them there as the photos depict.

@sundialsvcs - Thank you for demonstrating that you don't have me on ignore by doing me the honor of a response. That said, you are still locked into your own assessment of radiation conditions instead of actual measurements. Thankfully you've stopped denying those are even possible but have yet to take them seriously. I wish you would address LRRR, Russian radar data, and modern moon satellite photos of hardware and rover tracks on the moon but then again I suppose "silence gives consent".