Am I the only one who gets annoyed with sloppy language use?
 

I'm not talking about folks who use English as a second language. They usually do a lot better with my language than I ever would with theirs.

I'm also not talking about occasional typos or intentional word mangling (like thunk instead of thought), or acronyms, or numeric abbreviations.

I recently saw a post that contained 10 spelling errors in four lines. I have seen others where there was no punctuation, no capitalization, and no paragraph breaks.

While the human brain has an amazing capability to make adjustments for imprecise language, such usage is harder to understand, and can often lead to ambiguity. If some of these posters write their programs or scripts the way they write English, I would be surprised if they could get anything to work.

Why can't we be as careful with our natural language as we are with the automated ones? Or are we just to lazy to use a little self-discipline?

EDIT: Thanks cybergal for pointing out where I blew my own standard. The last sentence above should read "Or are we just too lazy to use a little self-discipline?" :eek:

Most posts I see here are well written and express their points nicely. There's a few bad eggs, but oh well.

You're right, most posts are well written. As for describing the others as bad eggs, that is not my primary intention. I'm just hoping to make people aware of the benefits of using more precise presentation in their communication.

Thanks for the reply.

No, you're not the only one.

and the spell check button lives right below the message input box. why more people don't use it is beyond me

Is there any way that we can issue a gentle suggestion to people to do better? I really don't want to embarrass anyone or discourage them from participating. Putting someone on the defensive is generally not a constructive action.

Maybe we could create a sticky post with some carefully worded guidelines, and include a link in replies to these posts. I would be willing to help with authoring such a sticky post, of course subject to any suggestions for modification.

Any feedback from a Mod?

I is not being botherd by bad languidge.
I rights well as it is, is I not?

</being_facetious>

Yes, sloppy language use is really annoying. I especially hate leet-speak and IRC-type talking.
It irritates me no end.
(Yes, I know `hate' is a very strong negative word, but currently I can't think of any other word to sum up how annoying they are. Incidentally, I have an English exam in a few weeks, and I know some people are going to fill it with `right', `yeh', `lol', etc. but that's their loss.)

EDIT: dickgregory: but how many of these who don't take the time to check their usage of the English language are going to take the time to read a sticky?

Reason for edit 1: Adding a point
Reason for edit 2: tryping erot. :D

Even the best fisherman doesn't catch all the fish. Some improvement will be better than nothing.

I remember when I was less fluent with English; it sometimes was really difficult for me to understand some posts, which now I would hardly call badly written, just "could be better".

So for the ease of reading of forein people (well, not English-speaking), it would indeed be better if all would make the effort of writing correctly...

However, I actually find that on theses boards, or other international linux-related boards, this topic is not really an issue, so maybe, just maybe, people who program do care more than others for good writing LOL

The worst I've seen is on TV-station blogs, or many other non-techie boards/blogs. It's OK here IMO.

Yves.

If they do better, it may be because English is not their first language. :)

I learned English as a second language. In school, we were taught to be very careful with the spelling, punctuation, etc. Mistakes would cost us points in the exams. They may even cost you an opportunity to go to a reputable university.

I had no such pressure in Japanese, my first language. Sure, we did have Japanese classes, but their focus was on reading and interpreting the Japanese literature as well as learning the Chinese characters. There was very little time spent on the actual Japanese grammar.

If you ask me to write a short essay in English and in Japanese, I'm 100% sure the Japanese version would contain a lot more typos and grammatical errors than the English version. Kinda sad, when you think about it...

Usually, I'm really picky about my language (c++ or java code). Everything should have proper tabs, and lined up perfectly. Things like that which make my programs barable to read...

Daihard, if you don't mind me asking, how old are you, and when did you start learning English?

Just wondering. I'm interested in how long it takes to become good at a new language.

I was raised by college professors and authors--thus I have a bit of the language snob in me.

Some of the stuff you see here is simply juvenile--young people have their own language in chat rooms and text messaging. I suspect (hope) that some of this wears off with age.

Beyond this--at least in the US--there is a serious educational issue. For years we have practiced "social promotion"--passing kids on who don't know the basics. There are some alarming statistics about what our high school seniors do not know.

As an engineering manager, I am appalled at the number of people with college degrees who can not write comprehensible english prose.

Yes--there really is a problem. Can it be fixed? For the long haul, yes. For the short term, admonishing someone to write more clearly may have limited impact--they are doing what they have learned.

At least MAYBE we cud gt the kids 2 stop the chat-room bb tok--wot u tink???

I actually don't have a problem with this type of language mangling. The abbreviations are usually obvious, and the necessary punctuation is there. This sort of thing is conscious and not done out of sheer ignorance or carelessness. It's when real words and sentences are mangled that I get upset.

Some of my favorite things to hate:

• no paragraph breaks
• no capitalization
• seperate (There is a rat in sepARATe)
• their instead of there or they're
• to instead of too
• dosen't
• more than 1 word per 20 spelled wrong (Occasional typos are ok)

pleeze lern too spel.

Yes, Dick. It aggravates me to no end. However, I've learned to overlook it. I had to... it was having a detrimental effect on my blood pressure. ;)

I frequently troll creative writing boards to correct people on their math. It amazes me how many English majors can't do basic arithmetic. That's a fundamental skill if you want to communicate effectively with a tech guy like me. ;)

There's a time and place for everything. This is neither the right time nor right place for an English lesson, IMVHO.

I dislike poor grammar and incorrect spelling, even when it's my own mistakes. I really abhor "leet-speak," "sms-speak," and the other abbreviated forms of typing.

No
 

You're not the only one. The thing that has confused me no end is that Linux is generally CLI heavy. Typing a long, complex command requires that EVERY character be correctly entered (e.g.; ' is not the same thing as `). How can people who, one would think, are subject to such an unforgiving processing environment be so careless in their other forms of type written communication? Makes me wonder.

[QUOTE=dickgregory]
Some of my favorite things to hate:
[LIST]
[[*]to instead of too

I also find sloppy language use annoying, especially when I find it in something I have written! You may want to edit your first post and add an 'o' to the 'to' in your last sentence.

Heh, I'm amused by the number of people that can't spell "definitely" correctly.

definetely
definatly
definately
....

I think it's only been in the past 200 years or so that there's been a standardised spelling for English. Puraps weer revurtin tu thu times wen evriwun speld evrithin ow thay wantid, eh?

You know what I hate?
I hate when I'm speaking to someone in person, and they correct my language as if they feel like they are better than me for being more disciplined in their speech... as if they can't understand me unless I am perfect with my annunciation.
I tend to have a lot of trouble explaining exactly what I'm thinking, but most of the time you can easily understand what I'm trying to say.

Snobs, like the ones I described above, make me want to slap them in the face on the spot when they correct me.

I've never been criticized for my english on a forum before, but I suspect I'd have the same reaction. It's just rude, and more uncivilized than a misspelled word.

[QUOTE=cybergal]Yup, you caught me. I won't try to make excuses. I'd not be surprised if someone found even more mistakes. I'll edit that post but won't try to do a cover-up.

[QUOTE=dickgregory]I did try to send you an email but that is blocked in your profile and there doesn't seem to be an IM feature here at LQ.

But now...'Yup' YUP???? Ha, ha! :)

It's almost embarrassing to say that I've been speaking (and learning) English for more than 25 years. It started in middle school when I was 12. I moved to the U.S. when I was 22 and have been surrounded by English ever since. I'm still not good at all. I learn new things every day... :study:

I'm with you on this one.

It can be really annoying, especially those who CAN spell well. People who use "cause" in texts are a good example. It won't be long before you see "lol" or "lmao" or whatever slang people are using.

I have to agree with you on this, but only partially.

Pre-1996 or so, I would get annoyed. I've been on-line since 1994, however, so I just needed a couple of years to get a thicker grammatical skin. I still notice errors the same as I used to, but if I let it bother me I would either go crazy or get rid of my computer.

That's not advice or a snide comment, mind you - it's just easier to live with it.

I'm guilty of intentionally mangling words or sentence structure for the sake of humor (I used "thunk" in the past day or so), but otherwise am also annoyed at those for whom spelling and grammar seem to have been skipped in school.

Sadly, I have met many people with advanced degrees who couldn't spell well enough to even qualify for a sixth grade spelling bee.

The ones who amuse the most are those who misspell something while correcting someone else's spelling mistakes.

My :twocents: -

The written word is powerful - no doubt about that. However, for many reasons, how the words are written make the whole either more or less powerful. The spoken word is often no less powerful, but then again there are things that bug me here. Peruse this short list:

1. "Like" = "I think you should, like, do this."
2. "Know what I mean?" = Spoken in every other breath. No, I don't know what you mean. I'm not a mind reader.
3. "Me and him went to the mall." Oh, boy. Grammar takes a big hit.

There are others, of course. I write the same way I think and speak. In fact, due to certain medical issues, I write a lot better than I speak. I make a conscious effort to monitor how I speak: my vocabulary, my grammar, my tone of voice and pitch.

However, a lot of people don't. This one is serious: I witnessed a teenager, just graduated from high school, write out a letter to his grandmother using all kinds of hiphop slang and curses. I shouldn't be surprised - I saw much the same in my years in juvenile corrections.

People judge you on how you present yourself - physically, emotionally, verbally, and through actions. I wish that a lot of people would take pride these simple things.

Yes, there is a place for everything - slang included. However, don't take slang or some such into a school or courtroom or business. Anyone who does that just makes themselves look small and stupid, and makes it hard to communicate.

As native Dutch (a langiage that I nowadays speak about once a week), I'm battling with the bold one in the following sentence (which one is correct?):
I'm to busy on LQ to do other things or I'm too busy on LQ to do other things

Well, that's maybe obvious for people whose mother-tongue is English, but for me, this sentence is unreadable. I only understand the last part (... u tink).
That is indeed important, and it does help in the above example..
I agree :)
When I see a large chunk of text with no line breaks, I'm discouraged in reading, and I skip the post.

Yves.

That's your point of view...
I would love to be corrected for every English mistake I write on forums!
One can enhance their skills by learning from their mistakes...

Yves.

Hello people!
Well, the things I really hate are these: IMO, IMVHO, LOL, and the others. Some people maybe can understand what these mean, but some not, like me. I still don't know what is IMVHO or LOL for example. I think if people take some time to type in a thread or reply, then they should take some time to type the long forms of those above.

The second mostly hated thing is, when people don't use line breaks. Without these the text becomes "unattractive". I mean when I see such texts, I really don't want to read them.

The third mostly hated thing is, when "every second word" is mistyped.

The things I don't hate: bad language usage. Why? Because everybody cannot be a language professor, and the guy who types the post maybe learns the language (English) only for a few months. For these types of guys there is no chance to use the language perfectly. Just think about the case when you all started to learn a new language. It was hard for most. People who already know something can easily say that "oh, that is easy", but it is NOT that easy for a starter. Of course, for those, who learnt the language for a long time, or are native speakers, it is a shame not to type without mistakes.

Maybe you haven't made any mistakes!

The latter:
http://www.meriam-webster.com/dictionary/too

I've seen many news conferences where a police spokesman uses the phrase "person or persons" Is the spokesman being pedantic, or signalling that he knows the exact number of suspects?

You use "persons" for a small and exact number of people. For example, look at the small sign when you step in an elevator. It will say something like "limit of 9 persons" which is correct.

In an LXer article recently, about a google ad for getting your computer infected, the author used "298 persons". I can see "19 persons" which is around the upper limit of a small number of people, but 298 is a crowd.

not *too* busy to answer you Wim
 

[/B]

Wim, in the sentence you quote, the correct word is "too".

I too become irritated by the sloppy use of the language. English is a very powerful and versatile language, and used correctly, a very beautiful one.
I think we should also try to remember that this forum and indeed the whole of the linux community is a very cosmopolitan group, with many people who speak English as a second, or even a third language. We can not only forgive them their mistakes, but also congratulate them for having learned another language sufficiently well to communicate, which is, after all, the main point of learning a language.
I am a native (British) English speaker who has lived and worked in the French-speaking region of Switzerland for over twenty years. I use French every day. I've become so used to speaking French that I find my English "slipping" sometimes - to the point where I mix languages.

So, please forgive any of my "Frenglish" mistakes :D

Example
 

This brought to mind something that had me ROFL (rolling on the floor laughing).

Early in the international career of Noriyuki Haga, a truly gifted Japanese motorcycle racer, he was doing a post-race interview after a thrilling win. His team had been coaching him in English and this was his first interview done without a translator. The talking head asked him about the dramatic improvement in his performance between qualifying and the race. His reply was that "the tires I used in qualifying were shit. The tires I used in the race were not shit."

The interviewer just looked at him for a second and said "Back to you Brian."

Perfect example, he used the language he was taught. And, after all, he did use it correctly.

I Got Another One
 

Sorry, brings to mind another humorous anecdote.

Whilst living in Scotland we went on a skiing holiday in France. At the time I was teaching computing and one of my students was a fluent French speaker. I had her teach me some phrases so I could communicate a little while on vacation.

It worked out well. I was obviously understood whenever I asked for something. But they always looked at me a little funny. At the end of our holiday I asked why. "I've been speaking in French the whole time and you clearly understand what I'm saying. Why do you give me such an odd look when I talk to you?"

"Well sir, you're obviously an American - but you're speaking French with a horrible Swiss accent."

Thanks everyone for your comments on this. It looks like the general consensus is that people would like to see clearer and more accurate communication, but don't want to be "preached" to. It also seems that most of us favor the allowance for a certain amount of tolerance for people who struggle with the language.

Let me recite an example that might show why I put so much importance on this. Quite a few years ago I had a friend who told me he would like to work for me. I told him that according to policy he would have to send me his resume. I got about 20 resumes for the position we were filling. They had to be approved by my boss, and after I filtered them, I sent my friend's resume along with 4 others to the boss. Because of 1 misspelled word and a couple of grammatical errors on his resume, I got reprimanded for even considering my friend. It was not easy telling him that I could not hire him.

In the business world, everything relies on communication. With some notable exceptions, most people with the level of communication skills being taught in American general education would not make it past a junior manager level. I think that anyone who rises above this can greatly benefit.

Was my boss a snob for his attitude toward my friend's resume? Probably so. Did he make me into a snob? Possibly. I've been called worse. My intention, however, is not to make myself look better than someone else. On the contrary, I have high regards for many of the people on this forum who have probably forgotten more than I will ever know about the topics being discussed. I have deep appreciation for the help I have received here. I certainly don't want to discourage anyone from offering or requesting help because of an inability to use our language properly.

I am quite sympathetic with those who do not use English as their native or primary language. English is a difficult language to learn, and sometimes it seems like there are more exceptions than rules. I know that I would really struggle if I went to Germany and tried to use German with the same fluency that their high school students have in English. So I applaud those who have made the effort to communicate with those of us who are still monolingual.

I also realize that not everyone on these forums is a professional. Some are hobbyists, albeit serious ones. For those in this category, I would have to suggest not using im/slang talk. It may sound cool to you, but some of us would have no idea what you are talking about. Most of the people on here that can help you are professional, at least in their skill sets. If you want their help, use a similar level of language in your request. There is no payment needed for their help, so a little extra effort to communicate effectively is a small price to pay.

The first responder to the original post on this thread stated that most of the posts in the forums are stated clearly, and I have to agree. But for those who are not, does the person requesting help deserve to get it? That's what these forums are for, but if the requesters can't clearly state their problem, there may not be much constructive help offered. http://linuxquestions.cachefly.net/i...s/twocents.gif
:twocents:

When I started using Linux in 2000 and joined my first Linux forum, I found that there was a whole new language for me to learn and a long, long list of acronyms that, when strung together, could form a whole sentence. Wow! In my entire working life [I'm now retired], correct English usage was of the utmost importance and documents and reports that came to my desk were diligently scrutinized. It helped that English was my favourite subject and major in school. So, on these forums, I don't take offence at the acronyms; they do save space, after all. It's when I read published books and novels that I get the urge to get out the red pencil and make corrections. I wonder how some of these manuscripts got past the editors but, in the self-publishing world, it seems no one cares or knows the difference. I'm tempted to contact the authors and volunteer to edit their next manuscripts! I know I'm not alone as quite often I see that others have corrected text in library books. To me, this inattention to detail spoils what otherwise would be a good "read".

I highly commend those on the forum who are learning English for asking for clarification and am glad that there are those here who are willing to help them. It is a fitting extension of the Linux philosophy.

No - I've been in this situation before. It has to do with the legal training that law enforcement types are required to have. I read that little bit, and thought "Well, that guy probably has a district attorney breathing down his neck who happens to be a real stickler about dry and boring legal terminology. The poor guy probably doesn't feel like hearing about it when he gets back to the job."

I've written many reports with "person or persons," "on or about," "approximately," and so forth. In court, reports and press conferences are admissible as evidence (legal documentation) and God help the poor sap that gets it wrong. A criminal could go free, based on one wrong or poorly chosen word. So, written this way, there is less chance that a tricky defense attorney could pick apart a statement and cast doubt on a witness.

That being said, the spokesman probably did know or had a very good idea. That way, the others doing the investigation could rattle more bushes and get more information if the perpetrators get worried enough to let something else slip. You use every tool in your arsenal to catch a crook - just be prepared to justify that use. The justification comes easier if you write (or speak) the report in just the right way.

for reference, IMO == In My Opinion
IMVHO == In My Very Humble Opinion
LOL == Laughing Out Loud

(I have capitalised the first letters so it is clearer where the abbreviation comes from)