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Old 06-06-2012, 06:57 AM   #61
LauMars
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdlinuxwolf View Post
There is no such thing as bad attention. Look at rock and roll. Look at Beavis and Butthead or Foamy he squirrel. A catchy name, with a slightly mischievous twist is great positive marketing. How many people here who have argued products or concerns for the name are likely to forget it? See, total success!!

Heck, if someone came out with Zombie Vampire Linux or even "adult" content Linux, thousands would download it. If a choice of scantily clad supermodels and handsome bunks were offered on the boot screens and desktops, it would get more users then Windows.

Add a superior product with great usability and it's invincible. That's just human nature. Nearly everything optional that we gravitate towards has some sort of emotional load. FUD is in fact something newer users struggle with when they approach Linux for the first time. Thus, invoking FUD is a net positive. Punny name, serious distribution. (catchy advertising)
"Adult Content Linux"? Now there's a genius idea!
 
Old 06-06-2012, 08:18 AM   #62
fewt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LauMars View Post
To be honest, I think fewt is coming across as cold and disinterested despite being restraint, and that's why I think this thread has gone round in circles.
Yes. This is because I've been hearing the same old change your name oh noes sounds like Ubuntu story for a few years now, and I'm honestly tired of hearing it. The name won't change, so why bother to hound us about it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LauMars View Post
At the end of the day, it's his project and his decisions. However I just hope he can appreciative that all the comments made have been friendly comments rather than negative criticisms (as some have accused). This thread really shouldn't be a "them and us" kind of debate in which it became.
If I thought they were, I would have said so. As some of you know, I'm not shy when it comes to speaking my mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LauMars View Post
I mean if you are going to be standoffish about every point raised, then it doesn't really incite support for the sceptics to try the distro (and it's the sceptics you need to appeal to as the others will just distro-hop anyway).
It isn't though. We don't need to go out of our way to appeal to anyone really. We aren't in the business of shoving our distro down peoples throats, if people find it and like it cool. If not, there are over 300 other distros to choose from. None of us will be offended if you don't use it.

If you have a valid technical problem though, we are all ears. We've spent thousands of hours tweaking, tuning, engineering features, and fixing problems brought to our attention .. and we'll continue to do so whether the "sceptics" like us or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LauMars View Post
I'm not saying fewt should change the name just because randoms request it on a global messageboard. But when our arguments have been reasoned, a little "I appreciate your advice / options, but it's not a viable option at this point in time" or "Thank you for your suggestions. In an ideal world I'd love to find a name which everyone likes - but sadly that's not possible. However we've already gain a lot of momentum with our current choice so I'd prefer to continue with that name for at least the foreseeable future" would sound a lot more welcoming than "It's my name and I'm not changing it!"
The name has meaning to those on the team, it's fun, and it fits our distribution. There is no reason to change it just because some people don't like it. We are the ones working on the project, we get to make the decision on what we call it.
 
Old 06-06-2012, 10:33 AM   #63
LauMars
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fewt View Post
Yes. This is because I've been hearing the same old change your name oh noes sounds like Ubuntu story for a few years now, and I'm honestly tired of hearing it. The name won't change, so why bother to hound us about it?
This is project is completely new to us so I find the "hounding" analogy a little disrespectful. Fair enough you might be sick of the same questions all the time, but you also have to understand that will happen as new people get exposed to your project. It's unavoidable so there's no point being confrontational with them

Quote:
Originally Posted by fewt View Post
It isn't though. We don't need to go out of our way to appeal to anyone really. We aren't in the business of shoving our distro down peoples throats, if people find it and like it cool. If not, there are over 300 other distros to choose from. None of us will be offended if you don't use it.

If you have a valid technical problem though, we are all ears. We've spent thousands of hours tweaking, tuning, engineering features, and fixing problems brought to our attention .. and we'll continue to do so whether the "sceptics" like us or not.
There's a fine line between having a non-preaching stance and just being cold. I'm not asking for a lot, just a little patience on your part when addressing questions in a new forum about a distro that was previously unheard of by said forums community.

Fair enough this is all old topics for you, but this is a new forum and a new community. So the questions are as good as new for the sake of the people involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fewt View Post
The name has meaning to those on the team, it's fun, and it fits our distribution. There is no reason to change it just because some people don't like it. We are the ones working on the project, we get to make the decision on what we call it.
If you bothered to listen to anything I've posted you'd realise it's not your name I'm arguing about but actually how little consideration you've shown those that have raised constructive criticisms. The fact that I'm having to reiterate this point just shows you couldn't care less what people have to say. And quite frankly, I'd rather not use a distro who's founders ignore the community given the hundreds of other distros out there who's community is welcoming (particularly when I'm often quite proactive in supporting my distro and it's community)

The name is your choice and that's just a matter of preference. However how you choice to respond to your audience is equally (if not more so) important.

Honestly, this thread is giving me flashbacks to the late 90s / early 00s when people accused the Linux community -and particularly it's devs- of being unfriendly to n00bs.
 
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:56 AM   #64
snowpine
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What part of "I like the name of my project, it has meaning to me, and I don't intend to change it" do people not understand? fewt can say it politely, fewt can say it rude, fewt can write it in the sky with airplanes--the answer is the same. LauMars you are mistakenly reading into fewt's posts a cruel intention that's purely a figment of your imagination. "We aren't in the business of shoving our distro down peoples throats, if people find it and like it cool," that's not cold and disrespectful; I see only friendly, light-hearted banter with a smiley face at the end.

I think "Google" is a stupid name but they make $billions$...
 
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:56 AM   #65
fewt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LauMars View Post
This is project is completely new to us so I find the "hounding" analogy a little disrespectful. Fair enough you might be sick of the same questions all the time, but you also have to understand that will happen as new people get exposed to your project. It's unavoidable so there's no point being confrontational with them
I'm sorry you view it as confrontational, it isn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LauMars View Post
There's a fine line between having a non-preaching stance and just being cold. I'm not asking for a lot, just a little patience on your part when addressing questions in a new forum about a distro that was previously unheard of by said forums community.

Fair enough this is all old topics for you, but this is a new forum and a new community. So the questions are as good as new for the sake of the people involved.
I have been patient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LauMars View Post
If you bothered to listen to anything I've posted you'd realise it's not your name I'm arguing about but actually how little consideration you've shown those that have raised constructive criticisms.
That's a whole lot of emotional response there. Just because I have decided not to change the name, that doesn't mean I haven't considered criticism. It just means that I decided the name fits and the criticism isn't compelling enough to convince me to change it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LauMars View Post
The fact that I'm having to reiterate this point just shows you couldn't care less what people have to say. And quite frankly, I'd rather not use a distro who's founders ignore the community given the hundreds of other distros out there who's community is welcoming (particularly when I'm often quite proactive in supporting my distro and it's community)
You aren't our community, and I believe that our community would disagree with your assessment. You are an outsider, we are here to provide support for people that use our distribution. That isn't you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LauMars View Post
The name is your choice and that's just a matter of preference. However how you choice to respond to your audience is equally (if not more so) important.
Fair enough, sorry if it sounds cold, but it is cold. It's a line in the sand, it's what we want to do and what we are doing. Don't take it personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LauMars View Post
Honestly, this thread is giving me flashbacks to the late 90s / early 00s when people accused the Linux community -and particularly it's devs- of being unfriendly to n00bs.
You'd be hard pressed to find we are unfriendly to n00bs, or anyone that actually uses our distribution. We may come across as unfriendly to those who attempt to make decisions for us, but that's because you aren't providing any value to the thread or subforum in my opinion. You are telling us what to do when you have no business doing so.
 
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Old 06-06-2012, 11:29 AM   #66
LauMars
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Originally Posted by fewt View Post
That's a whole lot of emotional response there. Just because I have decided not to change the name, that doesn't mean I haven't considered criticism. It just means that I decided the name fits and the criticism isn't compelling enough to convince me to change it.
Oh for crying out loud, I'm not going on about the name and wouldn't want you to change it just on my behalf. I've said this a dozen times already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fewt View Post
You aren't our community, and I believe that our community would disagree with your assessment. You are an outsider, we are here to provide support for people that use our distribution. That isn't you.
You're community is anyone who uses your distro. Not everyone who uses your distro is like minded. In fact Many of the people making those constructive criticisms did go on to install Fuduntu - and thus are part of your community while still raising the same points I had. And had I tried your distro like I was originally contemplating, I would have been part of your community too. So your whole argument here is flawed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fewt View Post
You'd be hard pressed to find we are unfriendly to n00bs, or anyone that actually uses our distribution. We may come across as unfriendly to those who attempt to make decisions for us, but that's because you aren't providing any value to the thread or subforum in my opinion. You are telling us what to do when you have no business doing so.
For the last time, we are not telling you what to do. We are offering our opinions based on our initial experiences. You shouldn't take such comments personally nor assume that their anything other than constructive feedback. How you act upon it is your choice. But to accuse us of ramming our opinions down your throat is completely disrespectful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fewt View Post
Fair enough, sorry if it sounds cold, but it is cold. It's a line in the sand, it's what we want to do and what we are doing. Don't take it personally.
That I agree on. At some point a line does need to be drawn. And I do fully respect it's your project.

I'm just getting annoyed at how you're typecasting me as a trouble maker, telling me I'm taking your points personally (from my perspective it appears the opposite is true - but each to their own) and accusing me of forcing the name point when I've raised it once and then let the matter lye. I feel you've completely missed the point of what I raised and instead accused me of something completely unrelated.

In fact, if you go back and re-read this thread you'd see that I actually supported your right to keep the name as is - I just felt you were a little rude about it (not massively, obviously. Just a little. But my comment was in response to an earlier poster who commended your tact).

However I appreciate that as our discussions have continued I'm probably now being just as guilty of my criticisms towards yourself. So given that and how circular this conversation has become, I wont respond further unless anyone specifically requests it

As I've already said, I genuinely wish you the best of success - regardless of any disagreements we may have had in this thread
 
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Old 06-06-2012, 11:40 AM   #67
snowpine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LauMars View Post
You're community is anyone who uses your distro. Not everyone who uses your distro is like minded. In fact Many of the people making those constructive criticisms did go on to install Fuduntu - and thus are part of your community while still raising the same points I had. And had I tried your distro like I was originally contemplating, I would have been part of your community too. So your whole argument here is flawed.
I think my head just exploded--I'm done.
 
Old 06-06-2012, 11:51 AM   #68
fewt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LauMars View Post
I'm just getting annoyed at how you're typecasting me as a trouble maker
Sorry, that wasn't my intent.
 
Old 06-07-2012, 07:27 PM   #69
statz
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Hi fewt, total newbie here.

I think you did great on the name and I had no idea what fud meant. Yes, at first I did think the unthinkable (re the big U), but did a doubletake, on your spelling. It made me wonder (without even knowing your explanation) why it didn’t say “fun….whatever”. After thinking about that for a bit, I realized, it really would not have been possible without looking goofy. But I was right, you do want people to have fun!

Maybe you are the first distro to put that in writing, not sure. But I like the idea of having fun after being at work all day.

After reading the prior comments, had to look up your distro – again. The first time I saw the page, the very tasteful logo colors made an impression on me, but the “lean style” did not, and I thought your web page was sparse. Then I kept researching distros….til my eyeballs have been about falling out and my brain cells on overload. How many wiki’s are really almost encyclopedic? How many times have I read “don’t ask, read all this first”…. And of course to newcomers it looks Greek, and is not organized well. After two weeks of that, I came across this thread and decided to take another look at Fuduntu.

The wiki isn’t miles long—how refreshing! You talk right up front about things that matter right off the bat…like ssh security. You have no idea how much that means considering I need to pay my bills online. Read about that being a way to get in =somewhere= and haven’t been able to find it again. Thank you for that!

Your instructions don’t look so overwhelming, but right to the point. The layout is very intuitive…something I don’t think many others consider. That is what makes good presentation. Not everyone has the same brain thinking pattern of uberlogic, and a nice layout like this really helps cut things down to digestible bites. Your distro is lean, something I now know to appreciate.

Search for #1 over, I pick this one!
 
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Old 06-13-2012, 03:20 PM   #70
bvanevery
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Hi! I've very recently returned to the Linux fold; finally got fed up with Microsoft developer toolchains. I live a nomadic existence and live and die by power consumption with a deep cycle battery. I've tried a pile of *ubuntu desktop managers to find a good combo of a responsive desktop + good, modern power management. All of them fell short. Consequently I've expanded my search to include any possible Linux distro, instead of just the clearly most popular ones. I'm very willing to "back" a distro that solves these key problems of mine. Existentially, "backing" something means speaking well of it to others, trying to advance and promote it, possibly contributing fixes or even core technologies, etc. Not promising anything, just saying I've been doing open source development of one sort or another for a long time and those are considerations I have when picking my toolchains. I will be trying your distro out to see how it performs.


Now the unfortunate part:

Quote:
Originally Posted by fewt View Post
That's a whole lot of emotional response there. Just because I have decided not to change the name, that doesn't mean I haven't considered criticism. It just means that I decided the name fits and the criticism isn't compelling enough to convince me to change it.

You aren't our community, and I believe that our community would disagree with your assessment. You are an outsider, we are here to provide support for people that use our distribution. That isn't you.
Many have given you pretty good feedback on consumer perception and trademark law. Unfortunately you seem to be a headstrong project lead that doesn't listen to people; "your way goes." Ok... you don't take community input seriously, and you don't consider people to be in your community if you don't like their input. Perhaps you'll listen to Ubuntu's legal department instead. Ubuntu has a complaint form for trademark infringment, and I've filed one about your project. If others feel that's the key issue, they should file their own complaints as well. Maybe Ubuntu will send you a cease-and-desist letter, and then you'll start to see/understand the law as the rest of the world sees it. Or maybe Ubuntu considers it no big deal, or doesn't think there's infringement, and then the "community" will have nothing to argue about anymore. But pardon if I don't accept your say-so about the legal issues here. I'm betting YANAL, and likewise IANAL, so I figure let the actual lawyers of Ubuntu give their "community" input on the matter.

Why am I doing this? Because I've participated in enough open source projects to see your actions and attitude as detrimental to your project. I think your project would be so much better if you, well, listented to people, instead of telling them in not so many words to shove off. Other than that, it's nothing personal. Maybe this will prove that the trademark is, in fact, not at issue. Or if you are infringing, you'll be forced to fix the problem sooner rather than later, which would be a favor to you in the long run.

Last edited by bvanevery; 06-13-2012 at 03:23 PM.
 
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Old 06-13-2012, 04:15 PM   #71
fewt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bvanevery View Post
I will be trying your distro out to see how it performs.
IMHO - You are just wasting your time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bvanevery View Post
Many have given you pretty good feedback on consumer perception and trademark law.
Sure, feedback is always OK but that doesn't mean I have to do whatever some users in a forum say that I need to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bvanevery View Post
Unfortunately you seem to be a headstrong project lead that doesn't listen to people; "your way goes." Ok...
Considering that I started the project, I fund the project, and I have spent literally thousands of hours working on the project I do get final say so, yes. Don't like it? Tough.

FYI - discussing changing the name was something that I took to the Fuduntu Community and the Team Jan 27, 2011 and the decision was ultimately made to keep it. (right you can't see that link - Community members only)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bvanevery View Post
you don't take community input seriously, and you don't consider people to be in your community if you don't like their input.
I take input seriously, but that's a nice straw man you are building here. Use one decision to make an assumption that I don't take the entire community seriously. Way to play the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bvanevery View Post
Perhaps you'll listen to Ubuntu's legal department instead.
Everyone, we have ourselves an internet tough guy!

Puns are protected speech, and the trademark is on "buntu".

Quote:
Originally Posted by bvanevery View Post
Ubuntu has a complaint form for trademark infringment, and I've filed one about your project. If others feel that's the key issue, they should file their own complaints as well. Maybe Ubuntu will send you a cease-and-desist letter, and then you'll start to see/understand the law as the rest of the world sees it. Or maybe Ubuntu considers it no big deal, or doesn't think there's infringement, and then the "community" will have nothing to argue about anymore. But pardon if I don't accept your say-so about the legal issues here. I'm betting YANAL, and likewise IANAL, so I figure let the actual lawyers of Ubuntu give their "community" input on the matter.
Ok.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bvanevery View Post
Why am I doing this? Because I've participated in enough open source projects to see your actions and attitude as detrimental to your project. I think your project would be so much better if you, well, listented to people, instead of telling them in not so many words to shove off. Other than that, it's nothing personal. Maybe this will prove that the trademark is, in fact, not at issue. Or if you are infringing, you'll be forced to fix the problem sooner rather than later, which would be a favor to you in the long run.
Without me this project would not have existed. Your attempt to attack the project is personal, but what do I know I'm just the guy with the biggest investment in the project both financially and in terms of man hours.

Your post just spreads Fear Uncertainty and Doubt about my project.

No surprise though, because of that little Ubuntu icon at the bottom left of your post.

Last edited by fewt; 06-13-2012 at 04:18 PM.
 
Old 06-13-2012, 04:16 PM   #72
JeremiahY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bvanevery View Post


Many have given you pretty good feedback on consumer perception and trademark law. Unfortunately you seem to be a headstrong project lead that doesn't listen to people; "your way goes." Ok... you don't take community input seriously, and you don't consider people to be in your community if you don't like their input. Perhaps you'll listen to Ubuntu's legal department instead. Ubuntu has a complaint form for trademark infringment, and I've filed one about your project. If others feel that's the key issue, they should file their own complaints as well. Maybe Ubuntu will send you a cease-and-desist letter, and then you'll start to see/understand the law as the rest of the world sees it. Or maybe Ubuntu considers it no big deal, or doesn't think there's infringement, and then the "community" will have nothing to argue about anymore. But pardon if I don't accept your say-so about the legal issues here. I'm betting YANAL, and likewise IANAL, so I figure let the actual lawyers of Ubuntu give their "community" input on the matter.

Why am I doing this? Because I've participated in enough open source projects to see your actions and attitude as detrimental to your project. I think your project would be so much better if you, well, listented to people, instead of telling them in not so many words to shove off. Other than that, it's nothing personal. Maybe this will prove that the trademark is, in fact, not at issue. Or if you are infringing, you'll be forced to fix the problem sooner rather than later, which would be a favor to you in the long run.
There isn't a legal issue. I take it you haven't actually read Ubuntu's trademark policy.

Quote:
Any mark ending with the letters UBUNTU or BUNTU is sufficiently similar to one or more of the trademarks that permission will be needed in order to use it. This policy encompasses all marks, in word and logo form, collectively referred to as “Trademarks”.
From: http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy
 
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Old 06-13-2012, 04:17 PM   #73
PrinceCruise
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Well well will people, what's up with the name?

As a Slackware user, I even find Slackware's name a bit strange for a Linux based OS while telling people about it, so what? The only sensible(IMO) name I'd ever heard for a Linux based OS was Redhat Linux. See? to each his own.

And about 'FUD'untu, the maintainer has already made it clear that he is not going to change it now. So what's the deal of pointing him out again and again? If he's sounding headstrong to some people, then they must read about OpenBSD dev's way of working -> no $hit!.

Leave the hobbyist alone for now, please. This thread should go the Dodo bird way IMHO.

Regards.
 
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Old 06-13-2012, 05:06 PM   #74
bvanevery
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fewt View Post
IMHO - You are just wasting your time.
Well with you, yeah, clearly. Too bad you lead your project with the style you do. It's like you go out of your way to make sure people won't think much of you.

Quote:
Your attempt to attack the project is personal,
Interesting. I'm pretty sure that to an earlier poster, you responded there was "nothing personal." So I imagined you were one of these "blunt logician" types who uses harsh words but doesn't mean anything personal by them. Just expects people to sift through the logic and ignore the delivery. Thought you could take what you dish out.

Quote:
Your post just spreads Fear Uncertainty and Doubt about my project.
I thought you didn't believe FUD was a well known concept in computerdom. Nobody of course would ever think of that, given your project name Fuduntu.

Quote:
No surprise though, because of that little Ubuntu icon at the bottom left of your post.
As should have been reasonably inferred from my post, I have no loyalty to them. I didn't put that icon there, or fill out any user profile, so it must be something LinuxQuestions infers from my browser. I'm guessing if I used Windows XP there would be a Microsoft icon. I do have an interest in distros achieving stability so that commercial indie developers can sell games on them. This in light of Valve bringing Steam to Linux this year. Will it work on Fuduntu? I know it's going to work on *ubuntu, if it works at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremiahY View Post
There isn't a legal issue. I take it you haven't actually read Ubuntu's trademark policy.
You're right, I hadn't. I'm surprised that you believe there's a legal bright line between *ubuntu and *u{b|d}untu for trademark confusion in the minds of consumers. It's not just up to Canonical to decide what trademark dilution is; if they don't defend their mark sufficiently according to general standards of law, they lose their right to the mark. Ergo, big corporations have gone after "infringers" for far more tenuous reasons. Maybe Canonical is nicer than that. At least with that written policy, you have ammo that Fuduntu is not willfully infringing, but that doesn't make a cease-and-desist letter impossible. Well I complained, so if they think it's actionable, they'll be in touch. I don't really care what Canonical does now, I've done my part. I was hoping to improve Fewt's worldliness and public relations skills, but one can only plant seeds.

Last edited by bvanevery; 06-13-2012 at 07:20 PM.
 
Old 06-13-2012, 05:17 PM   #75
fewt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bvanevery View Post
Well with you, yeah, clearly. Too bad you lead your project with the style you do. It's like you go out of your way to make sure people won't think much of you.
If I stopped to care what people thought about me I would never get any work done. So you don't like my style, stick with Ubuntu, they'll cater to you better than I will.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bvanevery View Post
Interesting. I'm pretty sure that to an earlier poster, you responded there was "nothing personal." So I imagined you were one of these "blunt logician" types who uses harsh words but doesn't mean anything personal by them. Just expects people to sift through the logic and ignore the delivery. Thought you could take what you dish out.
Another strawman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bvanevery View Post
I thought you didn't believe FUD was a well known concept in computerdom. Nobody of course would ever think of that, given your project name Fuduntu.
Now you took what I said completely out of context.



Go read it again, I implied it was not well known outside of computerdom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bvanevery View Post
As should have been reasonably inferred from my post, I have no loyalty to them.
Too bad that isn't the message your post conveyed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bvanevery View Post
I didn't put that icon there, or fill out any user profile, so it must be something LinuxQuestions infers from my browser.
Right - that was my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bvanevery View Post
You're right, I hadn't. I'm surprised that you believe there's a legal bright line between "buntu" and "untu" for trademark confusion in the minds of consumers.
Remember, YANAL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bvanevery View Post
It's not just up to Canonical to decide what trademark dilution is; if they don't defend their mark sufficiently according to general standards of law, they lose their right to the mark. Ergo, big corporations have gone after "infringers" for far more tenuous reasons. Maybe Canonical is nicer than that.
We aren't using their mark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bvanevery View Post
At least with that written policy, you have ammo that Fuduntu is not willfully infringing, but that doesn't make a cease-and-desist letter impossible. Well I complained, so if they think it's actionable, they'll be in touch. I don't really care what Canonical does now, I've done my part.
I'm sure you aren't the first angry Ubuntu user to push that button. This is my scared face.


































Quote:
Originally Posted by bvanevery View Post
I was hoping to improve Fewt's worldliness and public relations skills, but one can only plant seeds.
I don't have a problem with public relations, but thanks for pretending to care.
 
  


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