DebianThis forum is for the discussion of Debian Linux.
Notices
Welcome to LinuxQuestions.org, a friendly and active Linux Community.
You are currently viewing LQ as a guest. By joining our community you will have the ability to post topics, receive our newsletter, use the advanced search, subscribe to threads and access many other special features. Registration is quick, simple and absolutely free. Join our community today!
Note that registered members see fewer ads, and ContentLink is completely disabled once you log in.
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you need to reset your password, click here.
Having a problem logging in? Please visit this page to clear all LQ-related cookies.
Get a virtual cloud desktop with the Linux distro that you want in less than five minutes with Shells! With over 10 pre-installed distros to choose from, the worry-free installation life is here! Whether you are a digital nomad or just looking for flexibility, Shells can put your Linux machine on the device that you want to use.
Exclusive for LQ members, get up to 45% off per month. Click here for more info.
Oh, and how many OpenRC developers are actually on the panel, or on any Debian technical panel for that matter?
The exact same number as systemd developers.
Quote:
In addition, I really don't give a rat's ass about Gnome 3's prerequisites, IMO the only prerequisite a stupid GUI should have is for X(Or Wailand, or Mir, when they are actually ready for wide use) and the appropriate GTK libs to be installed, it shouldn't even even have to come with crap like D-Bus, udisks, or the various *kits as dependencies.
As far as I am concerned the GUI is nothing more than nice window-dressing for lazy people a lot of the time.
I need it for actual administrative tasks, writing code, building various essential applications or managing files, users, etc. as much as a monkey needs a golf club, moreover a lot of those tasks are actually considerably faster of done via CLI.
Hell there are even a number of pretty nice music players for the console, I only need to use runlevel 5 if I am watching a movie , surfing the web, testing html/css/js crap, using some IMs, or viewing or editing some types documents.
netBeans, Bluefish, Geany and Eclipse are all nice, but vi with some plugins(or EMACS if you are a pervert) works pretty damned well, thank you.
Also, GNOME3 is still a slow, ugly, uncomfortabe piece of trash written by retards, if I had to choose between it and Windows 8 I would just use Windows 8.
Ah, I get it, anyone who does not use the computer like you do or prefers a different visual style or type of DE is just a lazy retard. If I could use my ignore list you would have earned a place on it with post.
Learn to read, I clearly stated that I did try that stupid bloat and did not like it, and FYI I rather like FluxBox, so there is your retarded argument about Windows dependant mentallity.
Haha lol, good advice from someone who obviously didn't get what i have written at all! Keep it going!
If you think fluxbox somehow magically doesn't use the window paradigm, well, think twice next time.
I personally prefer i3 over fluxbox, as it's less noobish (i can be elitist too) and windowzy and more keyboard oriented and tiling (hint hint, maybe now you'll get it), yeah who cares.
Haha lol, good advice from someone who obviously didn't get what i have written at all! Keep it going!
If you think fluxbox somehow magically doesn't use the window paradigm, well, think twice next time.
I personally prefer i3 over fluxbox, as it's less noobish (i can be elitist too) and windowzy and more keyboard oriented and tiling (hint hint, maybe now you'll get it), yeah who cares.
Far better than the tablet-moron paradigm, windows are far more flexible than the idiocy pushed by iOS, android and now GNOME are trying to push.Also from the screenshots I saw of i3 it still uses windowing, so if you are all hot and bothered about a "non-windows" paradigm, why not use BloatGNOME instead troll-face.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD
The exact same number as systemd developers.
Ah, I get it, anyone who does not use the computer like you do or prefers a different visual style or type of DE is just a lazy retard. If I could use my ignore list you would have earned a place on it with post.
Excellent, lets get rid of the Upstart Ubuntu asshats now, so that we can have an objective discussion conducted by people that are not trying to reinvent hot water for the sake of being kool.
As to the idiocy you just spouted about me. well you are either trying to annoy me or you are a total moron, I don't give a rat's ass what other people use as their UI, just as long as I am not forced to use an init system because the dumbocracy decided that their bling must be dafault, and the idiotic developers need to force stupid dependencies, it is basically the same as if a car manufacturer forces you to buy the automatic gearbox model of car to get the leather upholstery.
What if tomorrow KDE decides that it should work with Wailand and OpenRC only?
And what about all the other Environments and window managers that do not have such stupid dependencies?
Distribution: Debian Testing, Stable, Sid and Manjaro, Mageia 3, LMDE
Posts: 2,628
Rep:
Quote:
Originally Posted by vl23
Far better than the tablet-moron paradigm, windows are far more flexible than the idiocy pushed by iOS, android and now GNOME are trying to push.Also from the screenshots I saw of i3 it still uses windowing, so if you are all hot and bothered about a "non-windows" paradigm, why not use BloatGNOME instead troll-face.
Excellent, lets get rid of the Upstart Ubuntu asshats now, so that we can have an objective discussion conducted by people that are not trying to reinvent hot water for the sake of being kool.
As to the idiocy you just spouted about me. well you are either trying to annoy me or you are a total moron, I don't give a rat's ass what other people use as their UI, just as long as I am not forced to use an init system because the dumbocracy decided that their bling must be dafault, and the idiotic developers need to force stupid dependencies, it is basically the same as if a car manufacturer forces you to buy the automatic gearbox model of car to get the leather upholstery.
What if tomorrow KDE decides that it should work with Wailand and OpenRC only?
And what about all the other Environments and window managers that do not have such stupid dependencies?
As someone that has been accused of being an elitist guru for suggesting that Unity was developed with illiterates working at fast food outlets, I really am embarrassed to advise you to try and be a bit more civil.
This is not a Windows forum. This is a Linux forum. The difference is that we try to treat each other with a bit of respect. We all have our ideas of how we like our work flow.
Mine is obviously superior to all others. For me.
I am sure that yours is for you. Even if it is outdated and moronic.
That last sentence is an example of what I am saying. I know nothing of what you do on your box or how. Therefore that sentence is completely and utterly stupid on my part.
Let's try to simply leave that kind of comment out of our discussions.
I enjoy table pounding discussions. I like to imagine sitting in a cozy room with the other parties, perhaps sharing a beer or three, stating, firmly, our opinions but having respect for the opinions of others enough to avoid table pounding from turning into head pounding.
Gnome3 isn't totally trash. A lot of good applications have come from the Gnome developers that have inter-worked with other desktops like KDE, Xfce, LXDE, etc. for a long time now.
Now I won't say it's not a pain in the butt to use, as it is and very clunky DE by design, but the applications that have come out of Gnome have been very beneficial to many UNIX and UNIX-like distributions, desktops, and platforms equally.
And lastly GUIs can be very beneficial to use and they aren't by any means just for lazy people. A lot of us use desktops for media and such that require GUIs.
Yup, GUIs are for lazy people. Why would I want to use a GUI for video editing when I could easily type a command the length of a paragraph for a simple re-encode.
Anyway, to get back on topic. I'm hearing a lot about systemd and upstart, but very little about openrc. Anyone have comments or opinions on that?
As someone that has been accused of being an elitist guru for suggesting that Unity was developed with illiterates working at fast food outlets, I really am embarrassed to advise you to try and be a bit more civil.
This is not a Windows forum. This is a Linux forum. The difference is that we try to treat each other with a bit of respect. We all have our ideas of how we like our work flow.
Mine is obviously superior to all others. For me.
I am sure that yours is for you. Even if it is outdated and moronic.
That last sentence is an example of what I am saying. I know nothing of what you do on your box or how. Therefore that sentence is completely and utterly stupid on my part.
Let's try to simply leave that kind of comment out of our discussions.
I enjoy table pounding discussions. I like to imagine sitting in a cozy room with the other parties, perhaps sharing a beer or three, stating, firmly, our opinions but having respect for the opinions of others enough to avoid table pounding from turning into head pounding.
I generally do not care about discussions, especially with people that are in favour of more unnecessary dependencies, the reason why I like FOSS and UNIX are simplicity and freedom of choice, systemd's entire philosophy and all the desktop idiocy interfere with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by replica9000
Yup, GUIs are for lazy people. Why would I want to use a GUI for video editing when I could easily type a command the length of a paragraph for a simple re-encode.
Oh, my a whole paragraph, that is so much.
Protip a paragraph is a way to structure text, not a measure of length, also you are a blatant liar, I've used ffmpeg once or twice to re-encode stuff, the commands were about 1/3 of this sentence's length.
Also to reiterate once more for those that can't read, I do not care what GUI you decide to use, hell if you decide to add some special peripherals to your system and use it to fulfil various physiological needs I do not care, when your garbage GUI addon of choice forces the entire distribution to shift to a crappy init "replacement", that is when I do care.
Regardless of who's wrong or right or who started what, do observe proper netiquette and please keep this discussion on topic, respectful and polite from this point on.
What if tomorrow KDE decides that it should work with Wailand and OpenRC only?
Then that would be the KDE developers decision and nothing you or I can change, unless we participate significantly in KDE's development. Like it or not, it is purely the decision of those actually writing the software what to support and what not. If Debian goes with that or not is up to the Debian developers and also not up to you or me to decide, unless we participate significantly (read: enough to become elected to the CTTE in this case, or to vote in a GR, if necessary) in Debian's development. If you do not agree with the decision of the Debian developers you always have the option to change the distribution, fork Debian (maybe just create a derivative) or create your own distro from scratch.
Quote:
And what about all the other Environments and window managers that do not have such stupid dependencies?
Then that would be the KDE developers decision and nothing you or I can change, unless we participate significantly in KDE's development. Like it or not, it is purely the decision of those actually writing the software what to support and what not. If Debian goes with that or not is up to the Debian developers and also not up to you or me to decide, unless we participate significantly (read: enough to become elected to the CTTE in this case, or to vote in a GR, if necessary) in Debian's development. If you do not agree with the decision of the Debian developers you always have the option to change the distribution, fork Debian (maybe just create a derivative) or create your own distro from scratch.
As I already stated, it would take what I personally see as unnecessary additional effort on my part, I also rather like apt and dpkg.
If push comes to shove though I will move to Gentoo, CRUX or one f the other roll-it-yourself distros that do not force a ton of useless garbage on you.
Also as a user I have a say when the product I like is being filled with bloatware for the sake of shiny bloatware that I do not even use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD
What is with them?
Well what if every single one of them decides it can't work without a particular idiotic dependency ala GNOME for one.
Also why can't Debian just use another one as the default.
There is no legitimate reason to let a GUI environment dictate how core OS functionality is implemented, nor should GNOME get preferential treatment because somebody decided to set it asdefault.Here is a better idea, instead of saddling people with a default for it why not just let them choose one during the install.
There is no legitimate reason to let a GUI environment dictate how core OS functionality is implemented, nor should GNOME get preferential treatment because somebody decided to set it asdefault.Here is a better idea, instead of saddling people with a default for it why not just let them choose one during the install.
You already can, it's called doing a netinstall of the OS. I have 4 machines running debian, and Gnome has never touched any of them (some of the gnome libraries since I like Gimp and Pidgin, but Gnome itself never).
As I already stated, it would take what I personally see as unnecessary additional effort on my part, I also rather like apt and dpkg.
If push comes to shove though I will move to Gentoo, CRUX or one f the other roll-it-yourself distros that do not force a ton of useless garbage on you.
That is exactly what I will do if systemd becomes the default init system in Debian, I will, wherever possible migrate my servers to Slackware.
Quote:
Well what if every single one of them decides it can't work without a particular idiotic dependency ala GNOME for one.
Then Debian or other distros that provide more that one DE or WM will have a problem. But for now it looks that only KDE and Gnome will have dependencies on systemd (and KDE, AFAIK, only with their Wayland compositor).
Quote:
Also why can't Debian just use another one as the default.
For now Debian has already switched to XFCE as default.
Quote:
There is no legitimate reason to let a GUI environment dictate how core OS functionality is implemented, nor should GNOME get preferential treatment because somebody decided to set it asdefault.Here is a better idea, instead of saddling people with a default for it why not just let them choose one during the install.
I would prefer it that way also, if I would use Debian on desktop systems. For me switching a (working fine for me) init system because of desktop environments that I don't use anyways on my servers makes even less sense. But for Debian there are other things to keep in mind, for example that they can't just switch init systems on the fly only because a user decides to give Gnome a try on a desktop that has already XFCE or KDE installed. They will always have to make a compromise, regardless how they decide, someone will always be angry about their decision.
You already can, it's called doing a netinstall of the OS. I have 4 machines running debian, and Gnome has never touched any of them (some of the gnome libraries since I like Gimp and Pidgin, but Gnome itself never).
I know about netinstall of course, and there are also several live CDs with different DEs, however most novice users would simply download the official DVD image, install it and probably never never look into anything other than the defaults.
As Linus himself said, the main problem with the adoption of Linux on the PC is that it does not come pre-installed on PCs and Laptops.
As much as I dislike fedora I prefer their way of doing things, the installer gives you a choice between several DEs during the GUI install process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD
That is exactly what I will do if systemd becomes the default init system in Debian, I will, wherever possible migrate my servers to Slackware.
Then Debian or other distros that provide more that one DE or WM will have a problem. But for now it looks that only KDE and Gnome will have dependencies on systemd (and KDE, AFAIK, only with their Wayland compositor).
Good for you, however most medium to large organization admins don't have the freedom to just ditch systemd, the pointy-haired one needs to get a bribe from a vendor, I mean requires vendor support.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD
For now Debian has already switched to XFCE as default.
Good, although I was hoping that they would let MATE in and maybe even make it the default once it matures a bit more, sadly it would break a few dependencies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD
I would prefer it that way also, if I would use Debian on desktop systems. For me switching a (working fine for me) init system because of desktop environments that I don't use anyways on my servers makes even less sense. But for Debian there are other things to keep in mind, for example that they can't just switch init systems on the fly only because a user decides to give Gnome a try on a desktop that has already XFCE or KDE installed. They will always have to make a compromise, regardless how they decide, someone will always be angry about their decision.
Why not simply fork GNOME and maybe run the D-Bus successor systemd component as a separate daemon, it makes far more sense than using systemd.
IMO gnome is dead anyway, I hope this will be another nail in its coffin, also please have a look at my above comment about the defaults.
You know on some level even the CLI is still technically a form of a GUI. Now get off your annoyingly egotistical high horse please.
GUI's are useful for the jobs you need them for. Not everyone is comfortable entering endless commands and trigger flags, and not all jobs can be accomplished from the CLI. GNU/Linux is customizable for each person needs it for. If you like the CLI then more power to you. If you like the GUI no problem. Think of how Blind people feels about the Braille interface and auditory output. We should be so fortunate to have what we have, like, and use.
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing
Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute
content, let us know.
