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Old 01-07-2014, 09:22 AM   #16
jens
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Some Updates


Positions forming in the Debian init system discussion
LWN article: https://lwn.net/Articles/578208/

**Russ Allbery** (systemd)
https://lwn.net/Articles/578210/

**Ian Jackson** (upstart)
https://lwn.net/Articles/578209/

OpenRC is now in Experimental (...):
http://thomas.goirand.fr/blog/?p=153

A decision is expected this month...
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708
 
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Old 01-20-2014, 09:48 AM   #17
jens
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Quoting myself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jens View Post

A decision is expected this month...
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708
... sadly this could also turn in 4:4 scheme, plaguing Debian's democracy as happened a zillion times before.

http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldu...g-2088684.html

Last edited by jens; 01-20-2014 at 09:51 AM.
 
Old 01-27-2014, 10:40 AM   #18
eloi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jens View Post

Most agree that those old .rc scripts are simply outdated, stupid, chaotic and unmaintainable (sysv-init is dead).
Outdated, stupid and chaotic is the human brain. The spaghetti code you see in
most linux distributions (and BSDs) is not sysv-init fault. That's why users
with a poor knowledge of shell scripting and system administration see in
systemd a need.

I encourage anyone, indifferently of his knowledge about shell scripting and
Unix system administration to give Crux Linux a try. Read its rc files and see
how it boots. Do it and you won't want to hear about systemd/upstart tales
anymore.

Last edited by eloi; 01-27-2014 at 10:46 AM.
 
Old 01-27-2014, 10:49 AM   #19
replica9000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eloi View Post
Outdated, stupid and chaotic is the human brain. The spaghetti code you see in
most linux distributions (and BSDs) is not sysv-init fault. That's why users
with a poor knowledge of shell scripting and system administration see in
systemd a need.

I encourage anyone, indifferently of his knowledge about shell scripting and
Unix system administration to give Crux Linux a try. Read its rc files and see
how it boots. Do it and you won't want to hear about systemd/upstart tales
anymore.
Wasn't Arch using a similar method as Crux?
 
Old 01-27-2014, 05:07 PM   #20
Knightron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by replica9000 View Post
Wasn't Arch using a similar method as Crux?
Yes, and still BSDs and Slackware.

I think eloi wasn't so much referring to the init system its self, but more so the users management of the init system. The BSD init system which is where Crux, Slackware and formally Arch adopted it from, is very simple and easy to manage.
I can't speak for everyone, so take this with a grain of salt, but i believe that some distributions (namely Arch) have migrated to System d because of Gnomes reliance on it, plus Systems d's consumption of other often used packages which were previously separate.

I am against System d because of this. This is a very aggressive method to almost force most distributions to use it, which gives Redhat an immense amount of power/influence on all the distros out there.
Slackware is a big thorn in the foot of this plan since Slackware abandoned Gnome a long time ago, so the pressure to conform is a lot less significant.

Last edited by Knightron; 01-28-2014 at 05:38 AM. Reason: english error
 
Old 01-27-2014, 05:55 PM   #21
replica9000
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The thing I liked about Arch was their use of the BSD style init system.

So this must put Debian in a tough spot if Gnome is still the default desktop, and they're trying to keep kFreeBSD on the same page as their Linux releases, since I've read BSD doesn't have systemd.
 
Old 01-28-2014, 03:59 AM   #22
eloi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knightron View Post
Slackware is a big thorn in the foot
Adding 200 lines to your network rc script just because you want network-manager in KDE justifies systemd existence.
 
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Old 01-29-2014, 09:38 AM   #23
jens
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eloi View Post
Outdated, stupid and chaotic is the human brain. The spaghetti code you see in
most linux distributions (and BSDs) is not sysv-init fault. That's why users
with a poor knowledge of shell scripting and system administration see in
systemd a need.

I encourage anyone, indifferently of his knowledge about shell scripting and
Unix system administration to give Crux Linux a try. Read its rc files and see
how it boots. Do it and you won't want to hear about systemd/upstart tales
anymore.
That's mostly the result of a bigger question:
Is it still possible/useful to support everything inside a single distribution?

IMHO Debian would greatly benefit from a less modular design.
 
Old 01-29-2014, 09:43 AM   #24
jens
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Quote:
Originally Posted by replica9000 View Post
The thing I liked about Arch was their use of the BSD style init system.

So this must put Debian in a tough spot if Gnome is still the default desktop, and they're trying to keep kFreeBSD on the same page as their Linux releases, since I've read BSD doesn't have systemd.
Upstream sysv-init wasn't compatible with freebsd and hurd either (the whole /proc stuff).
 
Old 01-31-2014, 07:54 AM   #25
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Fark GNOME, GNOME 3 is the ugliest, least flexible, most anti-intuitive, and resource hogging piece of crap GUI I've seen, and this includes Windows 8 and a good number of phone UIs.Also the developers are apparently only interested in bling and making it tablet-ready.
The last straw that borke the GNOME cammel's back for me personally came long before the whole systemd dependence.
Also MATE.
Fork YEAH!

Last edited by unSpawn; 01-31-2014 at 10:26 PM. Reason: //No f-word please.
 
Old 01-31-2014, 03:27 PM   #26
gnudude
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Quote:
making it tablet-ready.
What makes it so tablet ready? Why do you think they would design for a tablet? I like gnome because it is so perfectly configured for keyboard control. I wouldn't think that would be if it was designed for a tablet.

Maybe it is for advanced users?
 
Old 01-31-2014, 08:35 PM   #27
widget
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnudude View Post
What makes it so tablet ready? Why do you think they would design for a tablet? I like gnome because it is so perfectly configured for keyboard control. I wouldn't think that would be if it was designed for a tablet.

Maybe it is for advanced users?
A lot of people like Gnome Shell. I am not one of them. If you like it that is great.

You really should read some on the Gnome website however.

One of the main concerns in the design of GS is to be touch screen friendly. Yes I know there are laptops and monitors for desktops that are touch screens.

Most aren't. Probably won't be for some time to come. This leaves the target for design as phone and tablet use.

The Gnome folks and the Canonical Unity devs like to say this is for "advanced" users. Bullshit. They are both designed for touch screen use.

Tablets are the touch screens targeted. These are not the chosen computing devices selected by most "advanced" users. These are the most popular devices in use by people that want little from the device except the ease of messaging on social media and watching video.

I used GS from late 09 when it became available for testing. Used it for a couple years. For me it simply got worse. I now use Xfce.

For folks that like GS it is probably great. It is more flexible than Unity. I have no idea about W8 as the only place I have seen it is in adds on TV.

It is significant, however, that HP is now offering a deal on new desktop/laptops with W7 instead of W8 because they seemed to run into some consumer problems with W8.

Judging from the ranting and desperate bragging being done about the fine qualities of GS and Unity I would judge that I am far from alone in abandoning Gnome as my desktop. Both Lxde, particularly in the form of Lubuntu, and Xfce seem to be reaping a lot of users from ex-gnome users.

Mate is becoming a very, very competitive DE. While I prefer Xfce I do maintain Mate (Wheezy netinstall with the Mate repo added) for my wife as she really wanted to stick with the old style panel system.

Her reaction to Unity and Gnome Shell was "I don't want that crap on my box." I installed both on an external drive so she could try them out. She is not an advance Linux user. She is an advanced GnuCash user. According to her, after running one and then the other for a week apiece, they simply slow everything down making her do more key strokes and mouse movements.

I found this same thing to be true if trying to edit several images in Gimp. Or creating an image using parts of several other images.

They were so bad for my work flow that I now find that I vastly prefer KDE to Gnome. I have always loathed KDE and still do. You can, however, still have a sane way of dealing with several different windows of one application that does not require movements all over the screen.

I will say, in defense of both Unity and GS, that if using a touch screen I think they would work fine. I use a desktop. I use a vertical monitor. I am not going to be using, for hours, a touch screen with the attendent holding of my arms out in front of me.

Nor am I going to spend thousands of dollars to replace my hardware to use either of them when there are fine DEs that will do the same job on my existing hardware.
 
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:55 AM   #28
linuxtinker
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Hey think some of you guys should take a look at this : https://felipec.wordpress.com/2013/11/04/init/.
 
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:37 AM   #29
TobiSGD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linuxtinker View Post
Hey think some of you guys should take a look at this : https://felipec.wordpress.com/2013/11/04/init/.
Thanks for that link. I have my problems with the Ruby syntax, but it is actually quite easy to get the concept. Interesting article indeed.
 
Old 02-01-2014, 03:10 AM   #30
widget
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
Thanks for that link. I have my problems with the Ruby syntax, but it is actually quite easy to get the concept. Interesting article indeed.
What he said. Thanks again. Very interesting.
 
  


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