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Old 05-27-2004, 01:41 AM   #16
utanja
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the install process for Debian Woody or even prior verions can be frustrating for a newbie who may not be familiar with terminology....how can you install if you know not what a mount point is ....what is root.....it is a mount point or a user...usw....or how do i handle exe files....(you dont)........thse are just a few of the areas which a newbie must learn even in console (text of nongui mode)...with a live CD....he gets up an running immediately.......and with knoppix can do a hard disk install and at that point is in debian.......with all his hardware correctly installed.....now he can learn about conf files and dependencies usw.....
 
Old 05-28-2004, 08:08 AM   #17
muxman
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Quote:
Originally posted by utanja
the install process for Debian Woody or even prior verions can be frustrating for a newbie who may not be familiar with terminology....how can you install if you know not what a mount point is ....what is root.....it is a mount point or a user...usw....or how do i handle exe files....(you dont)........thse are just a few of the areas which a newbie must learn even in console (text of nongui mode)...with a live CD....he gets up an running immediately.......and with knoppix can do a hard disk install and at that point is in debian.......with all his hardware correctly installed.....now he can learn about conf files and dependencies usw.....
Have you tried installing some of the other distros like gentoo? They make the Debian install seem like there is a button that says install and thats it. Compared to a few the debian install may be hard, but many others are harder to install, from the ones I've tried. There may be some that are very easy like mandrake, but overall I think debian rates near the top of the list for easy installs.

That's why I don't thinks it's so hard. Any distro you use you need to know most of that terminology for the install. I haven't installed one yet where I've been able to get by without seeing any of those things or having to make decisions about them. If there are any I'd like to know to pass it on to some of the total newbies I know who can't use linux because they are too frustrated with it.

I've tried knoppix and I do agree, for someone who knows nothing about Linux they can be up and using it in just minutes, then they can learn while running it. But for something like that I'm of the opinion that they won't learn that much. They'll use it like M$, they will use it, do the things they want with it, but not learn much in the process. How many M$ users do you know that have been using it for several years who don't even know what version they are running when you ask them? Or that there are different versions? Or what an IP address is? Or a batch file? Or any other very basic thing in M$? I think most will see that X is so much like M$ in the use and look that they will just stay with M$ since they have it working the way they like it better. Unless they are really committed to learning it.

I'm speaking from the point of view when I started with Linux there were no livecds and I just dove it. Maybe I wasn't as much of a noob when I started with Linux as some noobs are, but I was just wondering. My experience with Debian hasn't been like what most are describing.

Thanks for the $.02
 
Old 05-31-2004, 09:04 PM   #18
Big Al
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Of the distros I've tried, Debian is clearly the hardest. Even Slackware has some hardware detection, plus it's far more strightforward than Debian. I haven't tried Gentoo yet, but both Slackware and FreeBSD were easier to install than Debian.
 
Old 06-01-2004, 12:08 AM   #19
darthtux
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I tend to agree with muxman. I started out on Red Hat 5 and continued with every major release until RH9. I have installed Slack 7 and 9 and Debian 2 and 3.

If you just want to choose install this set of packages for this purpose, then Red Hat and Slack may be easier for the newbie. But if you don't want the bloat and only want install what you need, I've found Debian to be easier. I would much rather use Debian's dpkg than go through Red Hat or Slackware's custom installs. But hey, maybe I'm just one of the few who doesn't want a lot of crap on my machine.
 
Old 06-01-2004, 07:53 PM   #20
macondo
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Utanja:
it's a hard row to hoe. I installed Mandrake 9.0, it installed in a jiffy, it was pure magic, all i knew was that it was installed and Mozilla was running. Then i tried installing Abiword, it gave me errors of dependency. I installed the dependency and then it gave me another and after that another, you get the picture. I asked on the Mandrake newsgroup and they began to tell me Drake this and Cooker that, to RTFM, forget it, two days and I couldn't install something simple like Abiword., Linux wasn't ready for me. I went back to Windows.. The 'man' was for Aliens, i didn't understand jackcrap. It nagged me, i knew that some of these overbearing pseudo geeks weren't smarter than me, that they put their pants on just like me: one leg at a time.

Two days later, i ran into this article by Clinton De Young:

The Very Verbose Debian 3.0 Installation Walkthrough -
http://osnews.com/story.php?news_id=2016

I read it twice, and thought "i can do this", printed the article, inserted CD#1 and followed it step by step, i ended up with Woody, Mozilla, Synaptic, and WindowMaker, Windows98 was gone! Inmediately I did an 'apt-get install abiword' and 3 minutes later i had it, Yayy! i went to my wife and told her she was married to a freaking genius!, she was bored to tears.

By reading that article i had learned to do a basic partitioning, a lean installation (no Tasksel nor Deselect) no framebuffer, it made look for my vertical and horizontal frequencies in Google, it told me that nVidia=nv, it explained the difference btwn Root and User, and more important: how to use 'apt-get', the installation went like a dream. At all this, i didn't know that Sarge or Sid existed, or that i had installed kernel 2.2 or that 2.4 existed, i was happier than a pig in mud. I googled for ngs mailing lists and debian sites, got into the IRC with Chatzilla and wondered into #debian, not understanding 90% of what was being discussed.

Most geeks' writings aren't worth a pitcher of warm spit, but there are some good ones, secure in their knowledge, who explain things in English, people like Mr De Young and Robert Storey in distrowatch.com, this last one writes articles on debian based distros. It takes interest on your part, and you have to follow instructions, you have to read what people tell you to read, you have to get off your butt and get to it.

Most newbies don't read the articles or go to debian.org, all they know is that 'apt-get' did this to them, on purpose, unprovoked, with malfeasance. Did you read the APT-HOWTO? Did you go to debian.org and read what this distro is about? Of course not, i want my debian and i want it now!
I want it running perfectly even if i mess up and are ignorant on how to use it.

my 2 cents

Last edited by macondo; 06-01-2004 at 08:40 PM.
 
Old 06-02-2004, 01:42 AM   #21
muxman
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Quote:
Originally posted by macondo

Two days later, i ran into this article by Clinton De Young:

The Very Verbose Debian 3.0 Installation Walkthrough -
http://osnews.com/story.php?news_id=2016

I read it twice, and thought "i can do this", printed the article, inserted CD#1 and followed it step by step, i ended up with Woody, Mozilla, Synaptic, and WindowMaker, Windows98 was gone! ...

By reading that article i had learned to do a basic partitioning, a lean installation (no Tasksel nor Deselect) no framebuffer, it made look for my vertical and horizontal frequencies in Google, it told me that nVidia=nv, it explained the difference btwn Root and User, ...

Most geeks' writings aren't worth a pitcher of warm spit, but there are some good ones, secure in their knowledge, who explain things in English, ...

Most newbies don't read the articles or go to debian.org, all they know is that 'apt-get' did this to them, on purpose, unprovoked, with malfeasance. ...
I agree with so much of what you said and it follows right along with my point. A little knowledge and a little effort goes a long way. If you want to just use linux and put no time and effort in than a live cd is the right way to go. You can have a very windows-like experience without knowing anything about linux, just using a new piece of GUI software no different than if you install the win32 version of it in your M$. But just a little effort and you can use Debian and most any distro. You read The Very Verbose Debian 3.0 Installation Walkthrough, learned a little about linux basics and were able to get Debian up and running and doing some of what you wanted. You learned some from it but some of it you knew just from your experience with another distro.

After someone experiences the problems with installations and dependencies I think that makes Debian with apt-get seem so much easier and nicer than the distro you had the trouble with. Don't you agree? That was what I liked least about most other distros I've tried. Software installation and removal. You want to use a program and it can take a long time to install just because you need to track down dependencies. That same program with apt-get and you can be up and running in 3 minutes, sometimes longer, but most times much much faster. Installed, configured, and using the software while with another distro you are in the middle of tracking down package 4 of 12 that you need for this one piece of software to work. Not for me, not anymore. I love apt-get and I just don't want to use any other distro for that reason. My use of linux is so much easier now that I use Debian as compared to those other "easy" distros.
 
Old 06-02-2004, 02:37 PM   #22
crazyeddie740
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Ah, I love the smell of distro holy wars in the morning. Oh, wait it's the afternoon. Oh well.

Seriously though, Debian is a bitch for new users to set up (nothing compared to Gentoo though) but it's not bad once it gets up and running. For a starter, I'd use Knoppix until you're sure you want to go with linux. For when you want to use a "real" linux distro, I'd go with Mandrake 9.1, or possibly 10. If at all possible do this on a seperate computer from your main windows box, but dual boot on your main one if you have to. When you get to the point when you learn what is meant by "dependency hell", switch to debian.
 
Old 06-07-2004, 02:27 AM   #23
muxman
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Quote:
Originally posted by crazyeddie740
Ah, I love the smell of distro holy wars in the morning. Oh, wait it's the afternoon. Oh well.

Seriously though, Debian is a bitch for new users to set up (nothing compared to Gentoo though) but it's not bad once it gets up and running. For a starter, I'd use Knoppix until you're sure you want to go with linux. For when you want to use a "real" linux distro, I'd go with Mandrake 9.1, or possibly 10. If at all possible do this on a seperate computer from your main windows box, but dual boot on your main one if you have to. When you get to the point when you learn what is meant by "dependency hell", switch to debian.
Try Red Hat also, with RH or Mandrake you will easily learn the meaning of "dependency hell". Both of those are full of dred and unhappiness in that arena. They will easily fill your life with misery and woe. Once I switched to debian and no longer have to deal with that it's like a totally different OS. Not just version or distro but it's like a whole new world.

My whole point is that I've never experienced the tough install with debian that people are experiencing. I'm trying to find out why they think it is so hard. Not just saying that it is, but why? What made it hard in your opinion? What other distros did you try before it that you are comparing it to? My experience with debian has been a very easy install, but I'm comparing it to gentoo and some of the other distros I've tried which have very strange and unusual installs that make debian look easy. I'm also comparing it to older installs like from back in the slack 3 days. Not just slack but most any were not very nice back then as well.

With debian you boot with the disc, make some choices, and then you have debian installed. It's true that you need to know something about the choices you are making but it runs you through a step by step and then you're done. Also true that it doesn't explain much along the way, but if you know just a little about linux then you should be able to make it through. Maybe that's the key? Try some that are much harder to install and then debain will seem easy by comparison.
 
Old 06-07-2004, 11:26 AM   #24
Big Al
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Quote:
Originally posted by muxman
My whole point is that I've never experienced the tough install with debian that people are experiencing. I'm trying to find out why they think it is so hard. Not just saying that it is, but why? What made it hard in your opinion? What other distros did you try before it that you are comparing it to? My experience with debian has been a very easy install, but I'm comparing it to gentoo and some of the other distros I've tried which have very strange and unusual installs that make debian look easy. I'm also comparing it to older installs like from back in the slack 3 days. Not just slack but most any were not very nice back then as well.

For me, X-Windows was the problem. I went through the xf86config stuff, but the same answers that worked for Slackware & FreeBSD didn't work for Debian! I also hated the way Debian kept stopping the install to ask me questions. Slackware didn't do that!
 
Old 06-07-2004, 01:58 PM   #25
penguin4
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to all newbie & expierenced; Bingo! somebody like me sounded off on target. learning & knowledge goes the distance. Well said respondants.
yahoo!
 
Old 06-07-2004, 10:56 PM   #26
crazyeddie740
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Well, my first linux install experience was with slackware 9.1. Then Mandrake 9.1, then Debian (Woody).

The sole reason for Slackware was that it was what my friend had on hand. Even with my friend's help, it took me three tries to get it right. Debian's install is a little bit better than that, but not by much.

I would say that the main difference between a Mandrake install and a Debian install is choices- Debian has too many of them for a new user, and they get overwhelmed. Mandrake (and presumably RedHat) make a fairly good default selection with just a few simple choices, and then let's you tailor it a little bit.

That approach may limit the Linux power user, but the noob can switch over to a more fine-tuned distro latter, after they've gotten they're feet wet. Debian simple overwhelms the new user with too many options. I personally still don't use that second package selection tool because there's too many choices to wade through. ( A GUI package selector would help, but for technical reasons, a GUI Debian installer is long in coming.) I just get roughly what I want, then get what's missing with apt-get after the install's over.
 
Old 06-09-2004, 05:34 AM   #27
MangaManiac
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I personally love Debian as well. And to be honest I didn't find the installation to be all that difficult. That's because I (as many have done so) used another machine to read the HOW-TO regarding installation of Debian. The debian.org website explains neatly and in simple terms (mostly) the steps regarding installation of Debian.

Red Hat, Mandrake and other distro's are way better when installing, I agree. They explain during the installation what has to be done. But when having a how-to or a walkthrough besides you when installing Debian, it should not pose a real problem installing the OS.

Also I believe that when people want to use Linux, they shouldn't want to try and mimic Windows XP but learn to accept that linux is way different and can also be used using command line only. Of course browsing the web isn't much fun using Lynx so then install a GUI like Window Maker or KDE.

So, yes Debian is harder to install but not "impossible" for newbies. Just have the manual ready and you'll be fine.
 
Old 06-09-2004, 12:55 PM   #28
penguin4
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MangaManiac; there is the rub, you made effort to prepare before "as quote""jumping in feet first" makes perfect sense to learn to walk before
running. newbie me that is exactly path taken. however disadvantage US
usrers have is became dependent on Windows, and that was too bad. but willing to learn is not difficult doing is. thanks for encouragement!
 
Old 06-09-2004, 11:11 PM   #29
crazyeddie740
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Yeah, Debian is not impossible, just not the easiest out there. Might as well let the noobs get their feet wet with Mandrake or Redhat, that way they'll appreciate Debian more when they get to it.
 
Old 06-10-2004, 03:12 AM   #30
muxman
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Quote:
Originally posted by crazyeddie740
Yeah, Debian is not impossible, just not the easiest out there. Might as well let the noobs get their feet wet with Mandrake or Redhat, that way they'll appreciate Debian more when they get to it.
That's for sure. After using some of the other distros I appreciate Debain all the more. Apt-get alone makes it so much better of an experience in my opinion. The thing that always upset me the most was dependency hunting, that is no more.

The one thing I find lacking is that I don't know of any books out there about Debian. There are docs on the internet and howtos all over, but actual published books are scarce. Almost all the books are RH and a few others since those are the favorites of businesses and such.

Anyone know of any good Debian books?
 
  


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