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Old 01-17-2009, 09:10 PM   #1
BigglesPiP
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Unhappy apt-get autoremove, LIES!!


Every time I apt-get anything, I'm given a huge list of stuff the system thinks I don't need.

But I'm fairly sure I need stuff like kpdf, and kolf (full list below). Some of it I want to keep, the rest I have no idea if I need or not. I know I can set the ones I want to manually installed, but how am I supposed to know? Debian packs have stupid names at the best of times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lies!!
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
xserver-xorg knetwalk kpat kpdf ksokoban kolf lisa
xserver-xorg-video-rendition libconvert-binhex-perl krdc imlib11 krec
libdb4.6++ krfb libktnef1 libtwolame0 kshisen kmoon kmahjongg ksim libkscan1
kwifimanager kcharselect kjumpingcube kdeartwork-style knewsticker-scripts
kdeartwork-misc xserver-xorg-input-evdev kcoloredit artsbuilder
texlive-base-bin-doc kdessh kdeprint cervisia libpth20 kmrml katomic
libcvsservice0 kleopatra kdegames-card-data xserver-xorg-video-s3virge
kruler pinentry-gtk2 ktux libsensors3 xserver-xorg-video-all gnuift-perl
texlive-base kgoldrunner kbackgammon xserver-xorg-video-apm kpoker
xserver-xorg-video-ark libxml-libxml-common-perl dirmngr
kdepim-kfile-plugins libsnmp15 xserver-xorg-video-ati vorbis-tools
wireless-tools ncompress libkiten1 xserver-xorg-video-radeonhd
texlive-fonts-recommended libcrypt-ssleay-perl xserver-xorg-video-tdfx
ksnapshot kpackage liblockdev1 kooka kenolaba libnet-ssleay-perl
xserver-xorg-video-trident xserver-xorg-video-glint kblackbox libkcal2b
libxml-namespacesupport-perl libwxgtk2.6-0 libxml-perl
xserver-xorg-video-fbdev xserver-xorg-input-wacom atlantikdesigner
konsolekalendar lmodern kfloppy kdegraphics-kfile-plugins
xserver-xorg-video-v4l ttf-dustin ksame konqueror-nsplugins
xserver-xorg-video-mga libxml-handler-trees-perl libfont-afm-perl
kdepim-kio-plugins libkdegames1 xserver-xorg-input-mouse
xserver-xorg-video-r128 kcalc texlive-common lockfile-progs
xserver-xorg-video-nsc libhtml-parser-perl libpisock9 qca-tls
ttf-sazanami-mincho dosfstools libmimelib1c2a klipper
xserver-xorg-video-openchrome xserver-xorg-video-vesa libfinance-quote-perl
kdeedu-data kdemultimedia-kappfinder-data xserver-xorg-video-siliconmotion
xserver-xorg-video-mach64 kdeadmin-kfile-plugins kdeartwork-theme-icon
xserver-xorg-video-tga xserver-xorg-video-sis kweather libxml-sax-expat-perl
ksmserver libxml-xql-perl xserver-xorg-video-vga librss1 klinkstatus
klickety xserver-xorg-video-s3 ksayit kde-icons-mono xserver-xorg-video-nv
kmouth xserver-xorg-core libdvbpsi4 libxml-parser-perl talk
libmime-tools-perl kworldclock mpeglib kalzium-data kdewebdev kmenuedit
texlive-base-bin kicker-applets ttf-kochi-gothic festlex-cmu
xserver-xorg-video-tseng amor libparse-yapp-perl kdict libxosd2 htdig
lilo-config kgeography-data ktnef khexedit kdeaccessibility kedit xkb-data
dvipdfmx libkleopatra1 konsole kbounce korganizer kdetoys
kdenetwork-kfile-plugins xserver-xorg-video-savage libxml-dom-perl
kimagemapeditor atlantik kbstate libvlc0 ytalk tidy libtidy-0.99-0 arts ark
tipa docbook-defguide kcron ktalkd ktron texlive-latex-base-doc ttf-sjfonts
libkpathsea4 xserver-xorg-input-all vlc-nox cvs libtiff-tools perl-suid
kttsd kdeartwork-emoticons dcoprss ksysv kwin4 kdewallpapers libksieve0
kuser libhtml-tableextract-perl libwxbase2.6-0 klettres-data
libxml-libxml-perl kreversi kdf kdm libksba8 kspaceduel libkpimidentities1
festlex-poslex libxml-sax-perl xserver-xorg-video-vmware gnupg-agent kpf
libopensync0 xserver-xorg-input-kbd libkdepim1a kdnssd klines
kdemultimedia-kfile-plugins fifteenapplet kstars-data poster libao2 edict
lskat kdenetwork-filesharing knotes libbluetooth2 libarts1-mpeglib
festvox-kallpc16k kviewshell kgamma ocrad kfilereplace kommander flac ppp
networkstatus libdate-manip-perl khelpcenter libdvdnav4 libkpimexchange1
libiso9660-5 libdvdread3 libindex0 kanjidic knetworkconf
kdeartwork-theme-window xserver-xorg-video-i128 imlib-base
xserver-xorg-video-neomagic texlive-latex-base texlive-fonts-recommended-doc
xserver-xorg-video-chips xserver-xorg-video-voodoo ksmiletris konq-plugins
libxml-writer-perl libkmime2 kpowersave psutils kpersonalizer
libhtml-format-perl zip libgl1-mesa-dri libarts1-audiofile kxsldbg zoo
quanta kbattleship libmrml1c2a libpoppler-qt2 kdeadmin kpilot libsnmp-base
kasteroids xserver-xorg-video-i740 kompare festival kfouleggs libgpgme11
libkdeedu3 libkgantt0 libid3tag0 imagemagick libhtml-tree-perl ksnake
kdelibs xserver-xorg-video-cyrix libtar kappfinder eyesapplet
libio-socket-ssl-perl xserver-xorg-video-dummy libxml-regexp-perl
libwww-perl kdat indi kdelirc superkaramba gnuift ksirtet
xserver-xorg-input-synaptics kmines kget libgnuift0c2a libhtml-tagset-perl
libvcdinfo0 texlive-doc-base libebml0 xserver-xorg-video-sisusb kgpg
libestools1.2 konquest kate-plugins libgsmme1c2a tex-common kolourpaint
libboost-python1.34.1 gpgsm gnupg2 kmousetool kdeaddons-kfile-plugins
libmatroska0 xserver-xorg-video-imstt xserver-xorg-video-radeon
libarts1-xine kmag kdepim-kresources kdepim-wizards libmpeg2-4 kmilo ktimer
quanta-data kteatime xserver-xorg-video-cirrus xserver-xorg-video-intel
kdepasswd libsdl-image1.2 libnews-nntpclient-perl kmix kdeartwork kodo
libnet-libidn-perl
Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them.
 
Old 01-17-2009, 10:10 PM   #2
Dutch Master
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I see in your sig you're running Lenny, right? In that case, forget apt-get and use aptitude instead. This is a strong recommendation from the Debian dev's, as aptitude has better ways of detecting and coping with dependencies and problems with that.

Next: forget using the meta-packages. They're nice and easy, but take up space and cause these kind of problems. I recommend the following:
1) use 'aptitude keep-all' to keep all packages on your system
2) update your system with aptitude
3) remove meta-packages by purging them and then (re-)installing the 'real' packages (like gnome-core or xserver-xorg-core)
 
Old 01-17-2009, 11:11 PM   #3
BigglesPiP
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Unhappy

ooooooooow, I knew this was going to suck, I hate aptitude.
 
Old 01-18-2009, 01:11 AM   #4
craigevil
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I run Sid and apt-get autoremove has never went that crazy. I am betting you removed a big metapackage.
Screw aptitude.
 
Old 01-18-2009, 11:16 AM   #5
Telemachos
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A little time with Google, and you will find hundreds and hundreds of posts about this. Here's my quick version:
  • The version of apt-get in Lenny now offers autoremove. This is similar but not identical to aptitude's behavior. Both detect packages that were installed only as a dependency of another package. If the package that caused them to be installed is gone, aptitude will immediately try to remove the dependencies, but apt-get will simply bug you to autoremove them yourself. The thinking is that if you only installed them as a dependency of X, and X is gone, then presumably you don't want or need them any more. (Not everyone agrees with this, but it's certainly not a crazy thought and many people like this behavior. In any case, it's a feature, not a bug - in terms of design.)
  • The big problem for people new to this is metapackages. A metapackage, for example kde, works as follows. The package itself, kde, is nothing but a name with a huge list of dependencies. When you install it, a huge list of other packages gets dragged in as its dependencies. So when you go to remove one itsy-bitsy little piece of that a month later (say, kate), the metapackage wrapper has to go too (since it depends equally on each item from the huge list of dependencies). After that happens, since everything else from the huge list was installed only as a dependency to kde, apt-get bugs you to autoremove those items and aptitude immediately tries to remove all that stuff.
  • You can deal with this easily in one of two ways. (1) Don't install meta-packages - especially don't install the ginormous kde or gnome meta-monsters. (2) Install them, do whatever the $%#!* you want with your system, and when apt-get or aptitude bug you, type this simple command:
    Code:
    aptitude keep-all
    This will shut up apt-get and calm down aptitude since they seem to share the same "database" of items that should be removed.
Short version over; problem soved.
 
Old 01-18-2009, 11:58 AM   #6
BigglesPiP
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Sorted, so sudo aptitude keep-all, forget being clean before now, but in future do the keep-all after meta packages, and use apt-get in peace.

Thanks all.
 
Old 01-18-2009, 11:11 PM   #7
samjh
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I suffered a similar problem as well, and posted about it here: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...ything-696852/

What I don't understand is why removing a metapackage causes apt-get to think it should autoremove dependencies of installed software.
 
Old 01-19-2009, 07:55 AM   #8
Telemachos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samjh View Post
I suffered a similar problem as well, and posted about it here: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...ything-696852/

What I don't understand is why removing a metapackage causes apt-get to think it should autoremove dependencies of installed software.
The individual packages that get installed when you ask for a metapackage are all, each and every one of them, dependencies of the metapackage itself. If the metapackage is removed, then the package that they depended on is gone. According to the logic in the process, they should go too. So APT isn't trying to remove dependencies of installed packages. It's trying to remove dependencies of a no-longer-installed package - namely the meta-wrapper itself.

Last edited by Telemachos; 01-19-2009 at 08:02 AM.
 
Old 01-19-2009, 11:45 AM   #9
BigglesPiP
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I never actually removed the meta-packadge (which I assume was KDE).

I did remove almost all of the standard KDE bloatware though, which might explain some of the entries.

But no way do any of the multiple kmail clients or kfax machines depend on kolf.
 
Old 01-19-2009, 07:58 PM   #10
samjh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telemachos View Post
The individual packages that get installed when you ask for a metapackage are all, each and every one of them, dependencies of the metapackage itself. If the metapackage is removed, then the package that they depended on is gone. According to the logic in the process, they should go too. So APT isn't trying to remove dependencies of installed packages. It's trying to remove dependencies of a no-longer-installed package - namely the meta-wrapper itself.
I think you misunderstood me. What I meant was that APT should recognise that the although those packages are no longer "necessary" because the meta-package has been removed, they are still needed by other software still installed on the system.

Say:

acmebinary is a dependency of acme-meta-package, which has just been removed from the system.
acmebinary is also a dependency of some-other-package, which is still installed in the system.

Even if acme-meta-package is removed, APT should realise the some-other-package still needs acmebinary, so should not try to autoremove it.
 
Old 01-19-2009, 08:22 PM   #11
BigglesPiP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samjh View Post
I think you misunderstood me. What I meant was that APT should recognise that the although those packages are no longer "necessary" because the meta-package has been removed, they are still needed by other software still installed on the system.

Say:

acmebinary is a dependency of acme-meta-package, which has just been removed from the system.
acmebinary is also a dependency of some-other-package, which is still installed in the system.

Even if acme-meta-package is removed, APT should realise the some-other-package still needs acmebinary, so should not try to autoremove it.
You tell it to get KDE, it does. Kpdf and libwhatever are some of KDE's dependencies. You remove the KDE meta package. Kpdf and libwhatever are not depended on by anything else, so we can get rid?

No, we want Kpdf, but libwhatever can go. How is apt to know the difference?
 
Old 01-20-2009, 06:35 AM   #12
Telemachos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samjh View Post
I think you misunderstood me. What I meant was that APT should recognise that the although those packages are no longer "necessary" because the meta-package has been removed, they are still needed by other software still installed on the system.

Say:

acmebinary is a dependency of acme-meta-package, which has just been removed from the system.
acmebinary is also a dependency of some-other-package, which is still installed in the system.

Even if acme-meta-package is removed, APT should realise the some-other-package still needs acmebinary, so should not try to autoremove it.
I understood you, but metapackages work the way they do on purpose. Many people, me included, might wish they didn't, but they do. What happens in the case you imagine, I think, is a cascade:
  • acme-meta-package is gone so acmebinary has to go
  • some-other-package depends on acmebinary, but acmebinary has to go
  • a package that some-other-package depends on is going, so some-other-package has to go too
And so on and so on. The first rule is: a package can't stay unless it has all its required dependencies. Everything else follows after that.

If you did it the way you want, you would end up with the reverse problem (I think). The apt tools would end up telling you, "You can't remove foo because bar depends on it."

In any case, there are ways to fix the issues when they come up: explicitly reinstall acmebinary, and then some-other-package and acmebinary can stay on your system happily ever after. So, if you want a metapackage, but not all of it, then just install the bits you do want explicitly. There is also the aptitude keep-all trick I mentioned earlier.
 
Old 01-24-2009, 09:37 AM   #13
jlinkels
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I think it would have been better is Autoremove had not been added, or that you can enable with a parameter. Disk space is cheap, package sizes are small, and there is no registry slowing down the machine if too many programs are installed.

It should be realized though that it usually doesn't do unreversible harm if you proceed with the autoremove. If you remove too much, simply reinstall the packages you lost. Settings remain on the machine anyway.

I ignore the Autoremove recommendations.

jlinkels
 
Old 01-24-2009, 10:01 AM   #14
BigglesPiP
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Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlinkels View Post
I think it would have been better is Autoremove had not been added, or that you can enable with a parameter. Disk space is cheap, package sizes are small, and there is no registry slowing down the machine if too many programs are installed.

It should be realized though that it usually doesn't do unreversible harm if you proceed with the autoremove. If you remove too much, simply reinstall the packages you lost. Settings remain on the machine anyway.

I ignore the Autoremove recommendations.

jlinkels
The windows registry is hierarchical. It's as fast, if not, faster than .*rc files.

I love a good rant on Windows as much as the next man, but don't hate the registry for performance. There's a perfectly good eggs in one basket argument to use instead.

Last edited by BigglesPiP; 01-24-2009 at 10:02 AM.
 
Old 01-24-2009, 10:15 AM   #15
jlinkels
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigglesPiP View Post
The windows registry is hierarchical. It's as fast, if not, faster than .*rc files.

I love a good rant on Windows as much as the next man, but don't hate the registry for performance. There's a perfectly good eggs in one basket argument to use instead.
This was not trying to find a rant on Windows, I am seriously convinced that the slowness of Windows is caused by the filling up of the registry. I think we agree that a Windows machine get slower over time, especially if more software is installed, and that it feels like new when we do a clean install.

If I use regedit to search for some key, it takes *seconds* on a fast machine to search thru a registry of a few megabytes. That fits in the assumption that the registry is slow to use. If it is just a bad implementation of the regedit search function, I wonder why MS has not been abale to fix it since 1995.

In Linux, no matter how many packages I have installed (and on some machines that is QUITE a lot) it stays fast as ever.

If I can find an good and true explanation for Windows' degradation over time other than the registry, I will use it in the future. I like a good rant too, but dislike telling untruth.

jlinkels
 
  


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