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Old 02-29-2016, 06:48 AM   #16
ParadigmComplex
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I'm Bedrock Linux's founder and lead developer. While I'll try to answer the
questions as fairly as I can, it's worth disclosing that I have reason to be
biased.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slackerDude View Post
However, a quick perusal also seems like it might be more trouble than it's worth
It may very well be for some people, at least in the current beta stage.
Varies from person to person. If you're in the Arch/Gentoo/LFS crowd, willing
to spend a bit of time learning its quirks, and have an itch that it is
scratching, it may very well be worth the trouble. If you're in the
it-just-works Ubuntu/Mint/Fedora/etc crowd or just have a causal interest in
it, it may not yet be ready for you.

In my experience, Slackware is somewhere in the middle of the pack - hard to
guess if Bedrock Linux would be yet adequate for someone comfortable with
Slackware based on that fact alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slackerDude View Post
feel a little schizophrenic - you're never sure what distribution you're in...
That's easy - you're always in Bedrock Linux. You get components from other
distros. There's ways to query the system for what component is from where, or
to explicitly specify where to get something, should you so choose. For
example:

Code:
$ # which distro provides my pid1 (i.e. my init)
$ bri -p 1
1 runit (void)
$ # So, void linux is providing my init, which is runit
$ # which distro is providing firefox
$ bri -p firefox
13278 firefox (arch)
$ # So, Arch is providing firefox (and firefox has the pid of 13278).
$ # If I run "apt-get" run now, where do I get it from?
$ brw apt-get
jessie (direct)
$ # Looks like I'm getting it from Debian Jessie.
$ apt-get --version 2>&1 | head -n1
apt 1.0.9.8.2 for amd64 compiled on Sep 15 2015 21:44:33
$ # Let's say I want Ubuntu Vivid's - I can specify that quite easily:
$ brc vivid apt-get --version 2>&1 | head -n1
apt 1.0.9.7ubuntu4 for amd64 compiled on Apr  7 2015 14:42:59
Think of it like running software from various repositories. Is a given
package from Ubuntu's main repository, from universe or multiverse? From a
PPA? You usually don't care once you have it installed, but you can query the
system for the info should you find such a need. The difference is that on
Bedrock Linux the repositories are all from/for different distros that aren't
usually intended to work together.

Given the fact you're running Bedrock Linux with components *from* Slackware
and Ubuntu rather than running Slackware and Ubuntu, it's not clear that this
is exactly what worsel asked for. It may be fitting depending on why worsel is
looking for such a thing.

I think chroot, containers (e.g. LXC) or VMs would be closer answers to the
question as asked, but Bedrock Linux may very well be worth noting in case
worsel's underlying need can be resolved with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slackerDude View Post
... Also seems maybe not yet ready for prime-time?
It's still very much beta. Missing features (e.g. no user-friendly/automated
install yet), lack of polish in quite a few areas (e.g. no tab completion for
its utilities yet). Stability has been good: in its 4 years so far, including
pre-alpha and alpha releases, there's been one bug in a release which caused a
component to crash. Most of the difficulties are early on in its use. Usually
if you can install it, configure it, and get it up and running the way you
like, it stays that way. However, the lack of features/polish could very well
make it inadequate for some people at the moment. For others it's fine. Don't
run it on your pacemaker or nuclear power plant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slackerDude View Post
Have you used it? Anyone else?
I've been using it as my daily driver since the project began, including
pre-alphas of it in 2010~2011. However, I'm also the person best qualified to
resolve any issues that it brings up, so I'm probably not the best reference
case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by syg00 View Post
But there is potentially a lot of setup
There is a non-trivial amount of setup. There are plans to remedy this in the
medium/long term (in fact, the main focus for the next release is in this
area), but it's not quite at click-'n-go yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by syg00 View Post
and scope for confusion
There's plenty of potential for it. If you think about it, it's fundamentally
more complicated than other distros: Any two distros X and Y are each
independently simpler than a system composed of both X and Y. Complexity is
additive. In my experience it's not nearly as bad as people expect it to be.
It's designed with this limit in mind and does a fair bit to lessen the
problem. But the fundamental complexity is still there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by syg00 View Post
But it happens I have a laptop now available that may serve as an appropriate sacrificial lamb ....
If you run into any issues, the best place to go is the IRC room. If you stick
around someone will get back to you eventually. There's no sub-form for
Bedrock Linux on here as there are for other distros, and AFAIK the Bedrock
Linux community (outside of orbea ) isn't terribly active here. Although I'd
be delighted to see such a community develop here. If a Bedrock Linux subform
is made I may try and make a point of peaking at it every so often.
 
7 members found this post helpful.
Old 02-29-2016, 07:03 AM   #17
syg00
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Cheers - I did drop in to IRC and saw orbea listed, so I guessed my query was answered ...

To be honest I'm tossing up between Bedrock and Nixos as my next learning experience. Nice to hear from the lead dev though. Good luck with it.
 
Old 02-29-2016, 09:38 AM   #18
bassmadrigal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParadigmComplex View Post
I'm Bedrock Linux's founder and lead developer. While I'll try to answer the
questions as fairly as I can, it's worth disclosing that I have reason to be
biased.
I think you did a pretty good job of being unbiased

Quote:
Originally Posted by ParadigmComplex View Post
There's no sub-form for Bedrock Linux on here as there are for other distros, and AFAIK the Bedrock Linux community (outside of orbea ) isn't terribly active here. Although I'd be delighted to see such a community develop here. If a Bedrock Linux subform is made I may try and make a point of peaking at it every so often.
If you message jeremy (the forum admin), he could probably set you up with a sub-forum. Since this is one of the biggest linux forums out there, it might help get more visibility to your work.
 
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Old 02-29-2016, 11:47 AM   #19
Siljrath
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Smile bedrock fanboi #1's 2c

[edit]warning: this post may contain traces of mouth froth[/edit]

Quote:
Originally Posted by slackerDude View Post
It does sound interesting. However, a quick perusal also seems like it might be more trouble than it's worth, and feel a little schizophrenic - you're never sure what distribution you're in... Also seems maybe not yet ready for prime-time?

Have you used it? Anyone else? Comments?
i've been following bedrock since early.

used alpha 4 as daily driver on main rig for over a year (and curiosity poke installs of a prior two (or three?) versions too)(and the version after that, on a pendrive(! yus!)). took time out from bedrock at start of last year to explore nixos (and then guixsd, and void and a couple others i forget), expecting only to be not using it for about a month, ened up over a year away from bedrock... and having no-bedrock has felt like roughing it, going camping. getting back to bedrock now again though . takes a little work still (no "and the monkey pushed the button"-installer). but interestingly more streamlined (and cushy) aproach with hijack installs in this latest version. [edit]and a great learning experience, ~with either hijack or classic install method (... even if never even using any bedrock capabilities)[/edit]

it's a godsend for the rabid distro-holic who wants it all, and is long since tired of rebooting often, and has found insufficiency in vm solutions. pretty much any distro, native. 's what it's like. any and all. simultaneous, off n on as u want (probably wud choose always all on), n no absurd extra overhead as you'd get if you tried virtualising all that. because you're not /really/ running the whole kit n kaboodle, you're only running one kernel, one init. (i'm sure someone (paradigm) will correct me if i say anything misleading). ... and have access to all the software of the many. it's incredibly neatly done too. you'd think it'd get messy n hard to keep track off, but that has not been the case in my experience at all [edit](no more, and in some senses, far less, of a hard-to-keep-track-of mess than my epic multi-boots)[/edit]. at the worst of any confusion (uneasy choice of word since there is no confussion), you're only a "brw" away from knowing where something's from. [edit]and (theoretically (at least (since i've not (had any need to)))) can clean away a broken mess of a distro/stratum without compromising the rest of the system. ... lends a little more sense of security to play around. yay.[/edit]

no longer "which distro", now it's "which distros". it radically reshapes how you choose. no longer accepting the best compromise 1 distro, you can round off any shortcomings with stuff from another distro. [edit]... and another, and another... as many as you want i suppose. though in my experience, and usecase, with just a handful, i have all my bases covered well past satasfactory... a handful typically looking like an:
-- exherbo, gentoo or funtoo,
-- a debian based + additional repos,
-- and an arch (or parabola) + aur,
and with those 3 (depending which), anything else is a curiosity whim or learning experience. (slackware usually being next one i add).
... and it's way better than just "without rebooting". i can run apt-get update, and then without switching term/shell/anything, on the very next line i can run emerge --sync.
and it all "just works", once u get it installed n working right. heh.
[/edit]

it's not quite like as originally asked for. you dont so much reboot without the reboot. the different stratas of distros are all available to you at once (or as per your choice, turn them on and off... and maybe that can be like your instant reboot without reboot, and it /is/ instant... no waiting around for several minutes.)

though, seeking such an as-if-reboot use out of it might seem redundant, once you get the feel for what it's like to have package availability from many distros' packagemanagers/repositories, native [not virtual], sans-reboot(of any kind).

but then, who would be so bold to set out and ask for something like bedrock?

bedrock's the thing i think many of us want, and would ask for, if we didnt presume such a request is like asking for the moon on a stick.

<3 <3 <3
 
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Old 02-29-2016, 04:26 PM   #20
ParadigmComplex
Bedrock Linux Founder
 
Registered: Feb 2016
Distribution: Bedrock Linux
Posts: 26

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassmadrigal View Post
If you message jeremy (the forum admin), he could probably set you up with a sub-forum. Since this is one of the biggest linux forums out there, it might help get more visibility to your work.
That would be great! However, I couldn't find any means to do so. I suspect
I'm locked out of the functionality with the very new account. If that is the
case and the threshold is low enough I may stick around and see if I can answer
some questions to get the post count up.
 
Old 02-29-2016, 04:42 PM   #21
Didier Spaier
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@ParadigmComplex I have just reported the previous post so that it be brought to Jeremy's attention.
 
Old 02-29-2016, 04:45 PM   #22
bassmadrigal
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You can try to request it in the LQ Suggestions & Feedback subforum, or "report" your thread to a moderator, who then can escalate it to jeremy.

EDIT: Didier beat me to it...

Last edited by bassmadrigal; 02-29-2016 at 04:45 PM. Reason: Too slow
 
Old 02-29-2016, 05:08 PM   #23
jeremy
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ParadigmComplex,

If you're interested in creating a distro forum here at LQ, feel free to contact me offline either via the Contact form or directly via email.

--jeremy
 
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Old 02-29-2016, 07:17 PM   #24
enine
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Sounds similar to user mode linux.
 
Old 03-01-2016, 08:52 AM   #25
slackerDude
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Just learned about "user mode" linux, and openVZ, which sounds a bit more like bedrock, even (same kernel version for all virtual instances), although I guess with bedrock, there is no isolation, and everything is shared, including the process space, etc.

Question for the bedrock guys, and ParadigmComplex in particular: how much work is involved in building it, and once "usable", how much ongoing work needs to be done? Not installation/configuration, but actually backend development? Do you have distribution-specific code that needs to be updated for each distribution you support, or are those more or less transparent? I'm trying to understand the long-term implications of bedrock. Assuming you get to the point of "mostly happy" and it is decently stable, what needs to be done to support another distribution? In other words: can it survive/continue to be useful, even after you, PC, are no longer actively working on it, for whatever reason?

I think we all trust that if Patrick ever decides to hang up his keyboard, we've got others willing to pick up "the slack", as it were. How much "slack" would need to be picked up if you decided to leave. Is it possible to build it in such a way that it just keeps working with new kernels and new distributions, with almost no development work?
 
Old 03-01-2016, 11:14 AM   #26
ParadigmComplex
Bedrock Linux Founder
 
Registered: Feb 2016
Distribution: Bedrock Linux
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slackerDude View Post
Just learned about "user mode" linux, and openVZ, which sounds a bit more like bedrock, even (same kernel version for all virtual instances), although I guess with bedrock, there is no isolation, and everything is shared, including the process space, etc.
There's also LXC to throw into the mix, and some other technologies. I agree
with you here: in some sense Bedrock Linux is similar to these technologies in
that it lets you run stuff from multiple distros at the same time, with the
notable difference that Bedrock Linux (purposefully) does no isolation. With
Bedrock Linux software from various distros is intended to function as though
the whole thing was meant to work together, rather than as some contained
object isolated from the rest of the system.


Quote:
Originally Posted by slackerDude View Post
Question for the bedrock guys, and ParadigmComplex in particular: how much work is involved in building it, and once "usable", how much ongoing work needs to be done? Not installation/configuration, but actually backend development? Do you have distribution-specific code that needs to be updated for each distribution you support, or are those more or less transparent? I'm trying to understand the long-term implications of bedrock. Assuming you get to the point of "mostly happy" and it is decently stable, what needs to be done to support another distribution? In other words: can it survive/continue to be useful, even after you, PC, are no longer actively working on it, for whatever reason?
Excellent question!

The underlying techniques Bedrock Linux utilizes are generalized. They're
applicable to most "traditional" distros (in contrast to, say, Android). It's
not unheard of to see people in the Bedrock Linux IRC room mention they're
successfully using some distro that I had no idea even existed.

Here's a way to look at it: If two pieces of software have a mutually exclusive
dependency at a given file path, the two files conflict with each other. This
is why most software from one distro fails to "just work" on another. To
resolve this you need both of the dependencies available, and some technique in
place to ensure both pieces of software see their dependencies when they go off
looking for them. Add in the constraint that the two pieces of software can't
be isolated from each other but, rather, have to work together, and you have
the underlying problem Bedrock Linux is solving. Bedrock Linux has a
collection of techniques for ensuring the right files show up at the right
times/places. What technique is applied when/where is configurable. These
techniques are all portable across most Linux kernel builds, and are
relatively low overhead.

For example, you may have multiple "reboot" commands on a Bedrock Linux system
from different distributions. When you run "reboot", you usually want it to
be the "reboot" command from the same distro that is currently providing your
init. Void's "reboot" works with Void's init, Gentoo's "reboot" works with
Gentoo's init, etc. Bedrock Linux has a configurable system in place which
allows you to ensure when you run a given command, it comes from a
given distro. The following bit of configuration ensures that reboot
always comes from the distro providing init:

Code:
$ grep reboot /bedrock/etc/brp.conf
/pin/sbin/reboot     = init:/usr/sbin/reboot,     init:/sbin/reboot,   init:/usr/bin/reboot,   init:/bin/reboot
You don't have to configure every single piece of software that specifically;
there's also more generalized rules. I have things configured so that if
something is not a hard dependency (like reboot), the system should prioritize
providing it from a more stable/older distro (like CentOS or Debian) over a
newer one (like Arch). Some people prefer it the other way around.

These techniques are all generalized. They are then configured to be applied to
specific features, where the features are things such as executables,
libraries, desktop icons, application menu items, man pages, etc.

We don't (yet) have techniques for every such feature. For example, if you
install firmware from one distro it won't necessarily "just work" and be
detected by another distro's kernel/udev/mdev. You can work around this by
just installing the same bit of firmware from multiple distros, or copying it
in a number of places. It's not a huge problem, easy to work around, but it
doesn't "just work" quite yet as well as some other Bedrock Linux features.

There is some distros-specific code/documentation. It is almost entirely
about finding some way to get the distro's files on-disk so they're available
for use. You can use a distro's package manager to get that distro's files,
but you need to get that package manager first. You can install a
distro in a VM or another partition then copy/mount the files over into Bedrock
Linux, but that's a lot of work, so we've documented instructions (which we
later hope to automate with a utility) to get other distros' files with less
work. That is, naturally, distro specific. Once you have those files on disk,
however, everything goes generalized.

Should Bedrock Linux's development halt, you should be able to continue to use
Bedrock Linux with new distros developed after Bedrock Linux's last release.
However, new features (things like new standards Wayland may bring) may not
"just work" across the various distros without some extra manual work. If
we're lucky, that work may just be configuring the existing techniques to
support them. If not, we need to develop new techniques. Worst case scenario
we have no new technique/configuration and the feature doesn't work across
distros but just with other software from the same distro.

To be clear, such a scenario is a very unlikely hypothetical. I've been
managing Bedrock Linux for a good number of years now, through moves, job
changes, new developers joining the project and others leaving. It's not
likely I'll give it up any time soon. If Bedrock Linux development stops, that
means I need to find another distro, and as I'm sure you can imagine
there's no other distro out there I like quite as much as Bedrock Linux

Quote:
Originally Posted by slackerDude View Post
I think we all trust that if Patrick ever decides to hang up his keyboard, we've got others willing to pick up "the slack", as it were. How much "slack" would need to be picked up if you decided to leave. Is it possible to build it in such a way that it just keeps working with new kernels and new distributions, with almost no development work?
Pre-existing features are likely to continue to work. Established standards
like POSIX (which mandates $PATH) and freedesktop.org (which mandates the
.desktop files that populate application menus) are likely to continue for
quite some time. It's those things that Bedrock Linux targets with its
techniques/rules rather than the distros themselves.

Adding support for new features (like the firmware thing I mentioned earlier)
is a bit of a difficult R&D job. If all the current Bedrock Linux developers
hang up their keyboards, I don't see many people who have the skill-set,
interest, and time to do so picking up the slack. I'd much prefer to be
wrong here, though. If such people are out there no need to wait for me to
quit, we can use your help now

It shouldn't be hard to continue to document/automate distro-specific bits.
The aforementioned utility for automatically grabbing files from distros should
be easily extended/updated.
 
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Old 03-05-2016, 05:13 AM   #27
travis82
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@ParadigmComplex
Thanks for your detailed information. I have a question about Bedrocklinux. Forgive me if it sounds amateurish.

As far as I understood users can hijack their favorite traditional distro to BedrockLinux and install packages from other distros on top of it. If some packages need certain version of Linux kernel, how does Bedrocklinux handle them?
For example if I hijack distro A with kernel version 3.x and want to install a package from a repository of distro B which needs Kernel 4.x to work properly (by need I don't mean dependency). What shuold I do? do I need to compile newer kernel for hijacked distro?
 
Old 03-05-2016, 06:34 AM   #28
ParadigmComplex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travis82 View Post
Thanks for your detailed information.
Sure, happy to help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by travis82 View Post
I have a question about Bedrocklinux. Forgive me if it sounds amateurish.
Your question is quite reasonable, nothing to forgive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by travis82 View Post
As far as I understood users can hijack their favorite traditional distro to BedrockLinux and install packages from other distros on top of it.
Users can do that, but from the way you've phrased this I suspect you're missing a key detail here. It sounds like your mental model for Bedrock Linux has it function as a sort of meta-package manager which sits on top of another distro ("their favorite traditional distro"). If that's the way you're viewing this, I should clarify that's not the case.

The idea behind Bedrock Linux is that you can get various features from other distributions which are all made to work together. Such features do include packages, but also include more abstract concepts such as installation procedure. Some people prefer a polished, user-friendly installation experience which abstracts away some of the gritty details underlying the installation process. These people may choose a distro such as Ubuntu or Linux Mint. Others prefer a more hands-on approach and would choose something like Gentoo, Arch, or LFS. What should Bedrock Linux use? Ideally, it should allow for whatever available option the user prefers. Hijacking another distro's install is how Bedrock Linux goes about allowing for that choice. The user can install whatever distro provides the installation process or installation-time features they prefer, then have Bedrock Linux take over that install and leverage the result of the installation process (stuff like partitioning, full disk encryption, etc).

Hijacking is not (necessarily) a way to pick a "base" system for Bedrock Linux. While you can keep the hijacked distro's various files - things like its package manager, GUI environment, init system, text editor, etc - you can also toss all of them after hijacking. You can use the hijacked distro just for its installation stuff (things like partition tables and bootloader), then get everything else from other distros. While you can choose to get the majority of your features from one distro and use it like a "base", you're not restricted to doing this. The various bits of software from the various distributions available are all treated largely equally, none of them is specifically the "base" or "core" on top of which you install the others. They're all on the same conceptual level.

This has some neat flexibility advantages. What if you lose interest in your favorite traditional distro? What if you do something silly and it breaks so badly you need to reinstall it? If Bedrock Linux were just a layer on top of it, you'd have little recourse. As it is, it's pretty easy to blow away (and, if you'd like, re-acquire) the software bits from any one distro that's on a Bedrock Linux system without losing access to the software from other distros.

Quote:
Originally Posted by travis82 View Post
If some packages need certain version of Linux kernel, how does Bedrocklinux handle them? For example if I hijack distro A with kernel version 3.x and want to install a package from a repository of distro B which needs Kernel 4.x to work properly (by need I don't mean dependency). What shuold I do? do I need to compile newer kernel for hijacked distro?
If distro B's package requires kernel 4.x, distro B almost certainly also provides kernel 4.x. You can then get the kernel from distro B and use that. There's nothing special about the hijacked distro that requires you to get stuff like the kernel from it. You just used it for the installation process, and that's it. The Linux kernel strives pretty hard to be backwards compatible, so your kernel 4.x will probably work fine with software from distro A.

Well - mostly. There's two caveats. I'm working to resolve one. The other is likely something we'll have to live with.
  1. A bootloader (e.g. GRUB) from distro A may not automatically detect the newly installed kernel from distro B. You may have to manually copy distro B's kernel to where distro A's bootloader will find it, or configure distro A's bootloader to look for distro B's kernel in the right place. You may also need to do a bit of manual work to make sure the initrd creation matches everything up in case you're doing something fancy with the initrd like full disk encryption. While a lot of things from different distributions "just work" with each other, there are gaps here where the user has to manually remedy the situation. This is one of those gaps. I hope to make this "just work" down the road, but I haven't gotten to this feature quite yet.
  2. You've touched on a concept Bedrock Linux refers to as a singleton. This is something that you can only have one of at a time. The kernel is one of the more notable singletons; you can only have one in use at a time. Sometimes software have mutually exclusive dependencies on singletons, in which case you can't use both at the same time. While kernel builds are mostly backwards compatible, it's possible that distro A built the 3.x kernel with one feature that you want, and distro B built the 4.x kernel without that first feature. If that's the case, you'll have to either get a kernel from elsewhere (maybe from another distro C, or maybe compile your own), or have to live with one one of the two kernel feature sets at a time. You can trivially reboot to switch between kernels, but you can't have both at once. While there are ways to effectively have multiple kernels at once, I don't feel any are appropriate for Bedrock Linux; this is a limitation with which we'll likely have to live.
 
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Old 03-05-2016, 10:55 AM   #29
travis82
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Learned many useful things by reading your posts. Thank you very much.

Last edited by travis82; 03-05-2016 at 10:58 AM.
 
  


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Problem in Rebooting linux system from a web page amit_1 Linux - Software 19 05-14-2012 02:41 AM
Changing without rebooting coolb Linux - General 3 07-14-2006 10:12 AM


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