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2003 LinuxQuestions.org Members Choice Awards This forum is for the 2003 LinuxQuestions.org Members Choice Awards.
You can now vote for your favorite products of 2003. This is your chance to be heard!

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View Poll Results: Web Development Editor of the Year
Quanta 233 49.26%
Bluefish 215 45.45%
Ginf 3 0.63%
FCKeditor 1 0.21%
Screem 21 4.44%
Voters: 473. You may not vote on this poll

 
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Old 11-17-2003, 12:09 PM   #16
shm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pcghost
Where is KWrite? It has programming features the likes of which Dreamweaver cannot touch. Like loop ranging and tag matching..
Voting for quanta is a vote for kwrite, since quanta uses kwrite internally =)

quanta in the upcoming kde 3.2 is very nice, it has partial WYSIWYG mode and very advanced scripting support (kommander).. Give it another year, and I think it'll rival dreamweaver (not there yet though, because of WYSIWYG)
 
Old 11-17-2003, 12:27 PM   #17
Dave_bsr
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mozilla composer/vim

Mozilla composer does the grunt work. Vim does the details. Can i get a vote for "mozilla composer"???
 
Old 11-17-2003, 02:28 PM   #18
The Noid
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Quote:
Originally posted by s1ider
I'm sorry but if you voted for bluefish then you REALLY have not checked out Quanta any time recently. They don't even compare!
Quote:
apt-get install quanta
Reading Package Lists... Done
Building Dependency Tree... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
kdelibs-bin kdelibs-data kdelibs4 libarts1 libmad0 netpbm weblint
Recommended packages:
gs-aladdin phpdoc
The following NEW packages will be installed:
kdelibs-bin kdelibs-data kdelibs4 libarts1 libmad0 netpbm quanta weblint
0 upgraded, 8 newly installed, 0 to remove and 2 not upgraded.
Need to get 15.4MB/16.6MB of archives.
After unpacking 54.9MB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n]
over 50 MB of dependencies for an editor? If I want bloat I'll go back to MS Windows, thank you...
 
Old 11-17-2003, 03:28 PM   #19
fyoder
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In response to The Noid's post regarding quanta dependencies -- that might be a reason to mark quanta down. If one wanted to get extreme, one could argue that kde apps in general should be disqualified from specific categories and instead be regarded as parts of kde.

It's almost the reverse of Microsoft's one time argument that they couldn't remove IE because it was 'part of the operating system'. In kde's case, you can remove apps from kde, but you can't remove kde from its apps!

As a side note, anyone comparing browser start up speeds in reviews should do so outside kde, say in windowmaker, to include the time those kde libs take to initialize for konqueror.
 
Old 11-17-2003, 03:36 PM   #20
slakmagik
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Exactly why I try to avoid Gnome/KDE apps like the plague. Incredibly heavy and slow outside their environments and not exactly fast in their environments and I don't want to *be* in those environments in the first place. Probably a lot of good hackers devoted to that who could be hacking great stand alone apps instead.
 
Old 11-17-2003, 04:02 PM   #21
sequitur
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Quote:
over 50 MB of dependencies for an editor? If I want bloat I'll go back to MS Windows, thank you...
Don't be obtuse. What you're looking at is an install of all the base libraries of KDE. You're not going to find the base libraries for an entire desktop to be small nowadays. However the only thing that appears to be bloated here is the unreasonable tone of your remark. If you want to make an intelligent comment about something you ought to try actually running it. In fact we have put substantial effort into fine tuning Quanta so that it is fast, light and uses minimal CPU time. One of the first things people note is that if feels fast and light even with all the features we have. Also, and this may be news to you, we don't load everything up in memory when it starts.

I don't care what you're running. I just think you shouldn't be making ridiculous comments about bloat and Windows in the same sentence as Quanta. Are you running X? Did you note how big it is? Is it bloated and should you just run Windows? You can edit web pages in Pico or Nano... Quanta just delivers a little more functionality.
 
Old 11-17-2003, 04:32 PM   #22
sequitur
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Quote:
Exactly why I try to avoid Gnome/KDE apps like the plague. Incredibly heavy and slow outside their environments and not exactly fast in their environments and I don't want to *be* in those environments in the first place.
Once again a perfect example of self imploding logic. I can quote you reviews of Quanta noting how fast and nible it is. Andras spent months optimizing the parser. In fairness there have been challenges and problems which we're working on resolving, but show me another parser that can handle scripts and markup managing multiple interwoven document types, collecting group info from them all and setting up auto completion that can get through a 10,000 line file in a fraction of a second and can optionally reparse nodes as you type in real time. You're entitled to your opinion, but you just can't present it as factual if you can't support the data. In fact making a judgement without data is the definition of prejudice. Prejudice should not be presented as facts.

Quote:
Probably a lot of good hackers devoted to that who could be hacking great stand alone apps instead.
Usually people so entrenched in small, lean and light are old developers. I'm sorry to say that you are demonstrating a real absurd assumption here. We most certainly could not be creating good stand alone apps because Quanta has been largely coded over the last year by my partner Andras. If we were not using KDE here is what he would have to recreate just to reach break even...
  • editor
  • standard dialogs
  • Configuration dialogs and utilities
  • HTML widget
  • menu system
  • custom widgets (I'm not even including if you're asking for using X primitives or using the Motif or equivilent toolkit, for which anyone should be put in a rubber room and given Thorazine for suggesting since we would be there after anyway.)
  • various base classes
  • new plug in system (no kparts)
  • inter application protocol (no DCOP)
  • dialog designer (no Designer == no Kommander)
There would be much more. Until version 3 most of Quanta was just re-used KDE parts. Now there is a substantial code base of our own, but without KDE we would probably need at least a dozen more developers to deliver an inferior and inconsistent program in a few years. That's reality. It's not like I just said "hey I like KDE, let's use it". It was the obvious choice for me even in version 1.1 because of available code re-use.

If we had to build Quanta without the available code to re use we would not have even tried. It would have been too much work, taken too long and had too many problems. Subclass, extend and Konquer is the only way to go.
 
Old 11-17-2003, 05:04 PM   #23
slakmagik
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Damn. I hate it when I implode. What a mess.

Where did I say 'I benchmarked Quanta six ways from Sunday and here's the results down to the 15th decimal point'? I didn't 'present [it] as facts' - I presented it as my experience and impressions.

As far as the second segment of your argument, I'll just keep on until KDE and/or Gnome have finished turning Linux into Windows and then I'll start using the OS that replaces it.

I'd be a lot more impressed to hear about how 'we're aware our app could always be better and we're looking into ways to optimize still further because good is never good enough but, in the meantime, the benefit-to-cost ratio was just too good for us' instead of attacking some anecdotal distaste with what sounds suspiciously like 'all the hip young 'unentrenched' developers know that fancy widgets are worth any amount of bloat' but your angle is up to you, just as my *impressions* are up to me.
 
Old 11-17-2003, 06:17 PM   #24
fyoder
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It would be nice if developers could get the wheels without having to buy the whole car. I can understand not wanting to reinvent them.

In the end I don't know that it's that big a deal. It might be if quanta was the only web editor for Linux, but it isn't. I've used it, and it's great, but it has it's requirements. There are alternatives if those requirements seem excessive.
 
Old 11-17-2003, 06:22 PM   #25
sequitur
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Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Oregon
Distribution: Gentoo
Posts: 11

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Quote:
Damn. I hate it when I implode. What a mess.
Me too.

Quote:
Where did I say 'I benchmarked Quanta six ways from Sunday and here's the results down to the 15th decimal point'? I didn't 'present [it] as facts' - I presented it as my experience and impressions.
Sorry, but that's my point. Your experience says you don't have any relevent experience with which to form a relevent impression... Therefore I answered with specific relevent data so as to shed light on your comment as it was not applicable to Quanta. This bothers you? To be perfectly candid it does bother me that people publicly make uninformed statements that aren't relevent and expect everyone else to know they should just ignore it. Maybe it's because I dislike being wrong so much I try to make sure I'm right before I make noise.

Quote:
As far as the second segment of your argument, I'll just keep on until KDE and/or Gnome have finished turning Linux into Windows and then I'll start using the OS that replaces it.
Please clarify if what is bad about windoze is that it has a GUI with an interface that is easy to use or it's poorly designed, unstable and treats you like an idiot with numerous wizards. If you're talking easy to use then guilty as charged. Sorry we lack the badge of courage you get when you master Vi. If you're talking the rest then you missed my reason for doing what I'm doing... to do it better! Then again maybe you have a small drive and a skinny pipe but I'm not going there.

Quote:
I'd be a lot more impressed to hear about how 'we're aware our app could always be better and we're looking into ways to optimize still further because good is never good enough but, in the meantime, the benefit-to-cost ratio was just too good for us' instead of attacking some anecdotal distaste with what sounds suspiciously like 'all the hip young 'unentrenched' developers know that fancy widgets are worth any amount of bloat' but your angle is up to you, just as my *impressions* are up to me.
Here's a piece of advice. Stop now. I am having a hard time falling out of my chair with laughter and if I answer you are just going to have a redder face than before.
  • As I pointed out already we've spent months optimizing our parser. That means a number of planned features postponed, some for a year. The numbers I presented were because we do care and do profile our application and we are continuing with CVS commits today to focus on speed and more to come.
  • If you actually did follow any information on us you'd know my objective was to produce the next killer app on Linux because no category has a better shot and being dramatically better than a windoze tool then web development. So logically I would not be slouching my way there and I never would have sponsored Andras to code full time with my own money so we could play games.
  • You are right that I didn't mention that we have an average 5-10 open bugs which is the lowest of any major KDE app but there is only so much space here, right?
  • I also failed to mention we have a user mailing list and our typical response time is right away, but thanks for the opening. A number of users run our CVS and help us debug Quanta.
  • I am not a hip young developer. I'm 46 years old. I must just think young. Andras is 27, which strangely (to me) makes him one of the older KDE developers. I'm flattered you think I'm a hip young developer, even if I'm probably old enough to be your dad.
  • Your impressions, verbalized publicly, left uncertainty and doubt about my app. I cleared it up.

Why don't you just say that you really don't like GUIs much and leave it at that? Linux won't become windoze until you run as root, trash the file system, set all files executable and create a default scripting setup to wipe your disk when you say hello. None of these things have much to do with GUI.
 
Old 11-17-2003, 07:20 PM   #26
slakmagik
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Quote:
Originally posted by sequitur
Sorry, but that's my point. Your experience says you don't have any relevent experience with which to form a relevent impression... Therefore I answered with specific relevent data so as to shed light on your comment as it was not applicable to Quanta. This bothers you? To be perfectly candid it does bother me that people publicly make uninformed statements that aren't relevent and expect everyone else to know they should just ignore it. Maybe it's because I dislike being wrong so much I try to make sure I'm right before I make noise.


This an opinion poll at a Linux help site in which everyone is invited to participate. I've been through this exact same $#!^ with another evangelist before. I don't have to pass a test in order to voice my opinion. Similarly, you have a right to yours. I don't expect you to ignore it. It's the manner in which you chose to notice it. Of course it's important to you. PROmote it - rather than demoting others.

Quote:
Please clarify if what is bad about windoze is that it has a GUI with an interface that is easy to use or it's poorly designed, unstable and treats you like an idiot with numerous wizards.
It's too many things to discuss entirely but a bunch of over-integration of a lot of massive junk is a big part of it. The idea that artsd and a integrated file manager/web browser/help system (reminds me of something but I can't quite pin it down) has to load up if I wanted to run Quanta or Kjot or whatever. I've got xmms or ogg123 working and I've got man pages. Flipside, it drives me freaking nuts to type in 'man this_KDE_app' and be told it doesn't even have one.

Quote:
Then again maybe you have a small drive and a skinny pipe but I'm not going there.
wtf is that supposed to mean? You already went somewhere - might as well say where you were headed.

Quote:
Here's a piece of advice. Stop now. I am having a hard time falling out of my chair with laughter and if I answer you are just going to have a redder face than before.
If my face is going to turn red, it's going to be because of anger. Unlike you, I'm not concerned about my appearance and my pride on my ability to slice your app to ribbons with technical acuity in the same sense that you are so intent to defend it when someone breathes something less than rapt enthusiasm for it. I'm only concerned with people implying other people don't have a right to speak and saying their logic implodes - or that they are obtuse and unintelligent as you said to fyoder and, by extension, The Noid - when I am saying the equivalent of 'I don't like broccoli'. There's no frigging logic in that and it's still a valid frigging statement. If I must 'back that up;, as I've said, it wasn't quite important enough to me to benchmark, so I can only provide m anecdotal experience. The fine-tuned code tweaking behind the scenes is lost on me when all I know is that nedit or vim *materialize* on my desktop while I twiddle my thumbs for others and that sed can rip through reams of stuff instantly. I could 's/KDE/Windows/g' my entire filesystem before a KDE app got drawn.

Quote:
[*]If you actually did follow any information on us you'd know my objective was to produce the next killer app on Linux because no category has a better shot and being dramatically better than a windoze tool then web development. So logically I would not be slouching my way there and I never would have sponsored Andras to code full time with my own money so we could play games. [*]You are right that I didn't mention that we have an average 5-10 open bugs which is the lowest of any major KDE app but there is only so much space here, right?[*]I also failed to mention we have a user mailing list and our typical response time is right away, but thanks for the opening. A number of users run our CVS and help us debug Quanta.
No, what a shock - I don't follow any information on you. In case you haven't noticed, this *isn't* a Quanta mailing list. People have other things to keep up with. Why am I going to keep up with an app I fired up a few times, tooled around in for a bit, didn't end up using, and have basically fogotten except for the memory of impatience? On a Quanta mailing list you should certainly tell people to stfu if they come in bad mouthing your app with mere opinion. This ain't there. And even if it were, I wasn't bad-mouthing your app - I never said anything about your app *as such* - I said that anything that came with these overblown Windows knockoffs was something I tried to avoid in favor of more independent things.

Quote:
I am not a hip young developer. I'm 46 years old. I must just think young. Andras is 27, which strangely (to me) makes him one of the older KDE developers. I'm flattered you think I'm a hip young developer, even if I'm probably old enough to be your dad. [*]Your impressions, verbalized publicly, left uncertainty and doubt about my app. I cleared it up.
I, in turn, am flattered you think my opinion carries so much weight but I rather doubt it does. And judging by your attitude I thought you were quite young, yes. But you would be a prodigious young boy if you could be my father.

Quote:
Why don't you just say that you really don't like GUIs much and leave it at that? Linux won't become windoze until you run as root, trash the file system, set all files executable and create a default scripting setup to wipe your disk when you say hello. None of these things have much to do with GUI.
Linux has already become Windows when people greet the Slack installer and don't know what fdisk is, think their installation failed because 'all I have is a black screen with a cursor on it', think 'plumbing' or 'buzz' when they think 'pipe', and know where their configuration files are even less than they know where their buttons are.

I like GUIs just fine, though less than some, probably. I don't like KDE or Gnome 'integrated desktop environments' and I don't like the integration of good apps with them that are lost to me or impaired outside of those environments because of that integration.

Unless you clear up the small drive and skinny pipe, dad, I'm done.

Last edited by slakmagik; 11-17-2003 at 07:23 PM.
 
Old 11-17-2003, 08:13 PM   #27
darthtux
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Bluefish...all the way
 
Old 11-17-2003, 11:44 PM   #28
cuerty
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Bluefish for the HTML part, as far as I do it (the web designer that works with me loves Drewamweaver... )
 
Old 11-18-2003, 03:51 AM   #29
The Noid
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My point is.. I don't care how fast and optimized your parser is. I'm not gonna use quanta if it depends on 50 megs of KDE so all that nice optimization is completely irrelevant to me.
 
Old 11-18-2003, 05:40 AM   #30
sequitur
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Quote:
This an opinion poll at a Linux help site in which everyone is invited to participate. I've been through this exact same $#!^ with another evangelist before.
Wow! I'm in my place. Evangelize == developer and I == somebody, but I don't know who. I guess anything other than sweeping generalizations is off topic.

Quote:
I don't have to pass a test in order to voice my opinion. Similarly, you have a right to yours.
I'm relieved you're okay with me having an opinion but you seem upset when I present facts. There's an old saying about opinions which I keep in mind so as never to think too much of mine or anybody elses for that matter. It seems to me if you express an opinion which implies something contrary to demonstrable fact or where a consensus of opinion by those with specific experience you lack is in conflict that it's reasonable to expect your opinion to be challenged. I guess opinions trump facts, or maybe this is the place for opinions and not facts, or I just shouldn't confuse anyone with facts... Trying to figure out the rules is too confusing to me.

Quote:
If my face is going to turn red, it's going to be because of anger. Unlike you, I'm not concerned about my appearance and my pride on my ability to slice your app to ribbons with technical acuity in the same sense that you are so intent to defend it when someone breathes something less than rapt enthusiasm for it.
Wow, that's like vitriol, yet it evokes an effervescing mirth... We're talking about OSS here and since we don't generally get paid to develop it the motivation and currency of developers is the pride in their work and the esteem of the community. Is that the sin of vanity? Somehow I just don't see how the counter point of someone not caring if their opinions seem well thought out is a virtue. Frankly your opinion doesn't matter to me, but if someone is reading who is not informed it seems less than fair to them to mischaracterize their options. I guess that is what you call evangelism. This makes it a lot more for everyone else because if you're not excited about something or don't understand why someone doing something is passionate about it then we don't have much of a point of reference.

Quote:
I'm only concerned with people implying other people don't have a right to speak and saying their logic implodes - or that they are obtuse and unintelligent
Whoa! Hold on there masked avenger! I really can't believe how some people can conjure up such fictitious BS. Let's be clear and try to think specifically here. I never said anyone didn't have a right to say anything. I said that some of what people said wasn't right. I also said that a qualified opinion without specific knowledge was not a very relevent opinion. There is a big difference between "right" as in "right or wrong" and "right" as in what you may choose to do. If you took my disagreeing with an opinion offered as being intolerant of someone offering an opinion then you are either misinterpreting what I said or twisting it in an attempt to make me look intolerant. Personally I'm not touchy feely enough to fall for that crap. Also being obtuse is a behavior. Geniuses can say unintelligent things and all of us can be obtuse at times. None of that is an attack or a reflection on who someone is. It's an honest response to a statement that was made.

I said certain statements, those offering opinions that reflected on the topic of a specific program without specific experience, were less than relevent. With all the aspersions about my character and changes of the subject I note that the specific merit of what I said has not been challenged. I'm sorry, that's no way to debate. Just because someone has a right to an opinion it doesn't make the opinion sacred.

Quote:
And judging by your attitude I thought you were quite young, yes.
And here's why I'm not your average hacker... I happen to know that 93% of interpersonal communication is non verbal and therefore it's very difficult to really asses a person from a few typed words. My experience running a project and communicating with users has borne out how easy it is to misinterpret, especially someone with a sense of humor. Have you counted the funny lines?

Quote:
I like GUIs just fine, though less than some, probably. I don't like KDE or Gnome 'integrated desktop environments' and I don't like the integration of good apps with them that are lost to me or impaired outside of those environments because of that integration.
That's fair enough. I have a friend who sounds very much like you and our talks are always entertaining. Oddly enough he's a game developer. I don't really disagree with your premise here but I don't know how much I can agree without really defining "impaired". Out of curiousity I just started Quanta and then Mozilla Firebird. They were close. Quanta was a few seconds faster but still had to load files. It loaded 5 files averaging 400 lines where 4 had 2-5 included files which were also parsed, all in about 5 seconds on my Athlon 1900. I honestly don't know what the load up is like when KDE is not running but if we're going to be general... if you feel Mozilla Firebird is a dog than so is Quanta. However we're not done optimizing it yet so it will be faster come release time.

Mozilla Firebird is smaller and I would guess that those who don't like the desktops would probably be okay with it. The big difference seems to be not in responsivleness but in the size of the related files on the hard drive. Therefore the correlation and reference to bloat doesn't make sense. The only way it doesn't confuse me is if we make the requirements simply that it is what we choose to believe and then we make sure not to go and disprove it. I guess I just slipped up and got curious... then I was led astray by sexy widgets.

Quote:
Unless you clear up the small drive and skinny pipe, dad, I'm done.
I know you've given me an incentive not to but that wouldn't be nice. It's a double entendre, which is why I didn't want to go there. "small drive" == cramped for space on your hard disk and "skinny pipe" != "fat pipe" would be a slow internet connection. This was a speculation prior to your offering a more detailed explanation.

BTW does this mean I can call you son?
 
  


 


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