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Old 12-16-2009, 08:12 PM   #31
mobydick
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IMO, the PC-BSD project is a compromise variant, intended to attract
new customers. It is the same old FreeBSD wrapped in a nice GUI + PBI.
I think it's meant to add more popularity to FreeBSD, which is less
popular than Linux distributions.
As for me, I wouldn't like BSD be more popular like Linux.
FreeBSD is better than Linux distros and I hope it will always
be like that.
 
Old 12-17-2009, 03:20 PM   #32
Oliver_H
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>FreeBSD is better than Linux distros and I hope it will always be like that.

What's better? I'm using FreeBSD and Slackware - Slackware since the early 90s, FreeBSD since 5.0 because of quality. I don't have any penalties while using the Slack and I'm really sick of this fanboyism. I don't like any single Linux distro, but at least Slack and to some degree Gentoo. Vice versa PCBSD is in my opinion redundant, especially PBI. So what? Who cares? It's open source, if you want to compete do it with facts not fiction.
 
Old 12-17-2009, 04:54 PM   #33
MBybee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver_H View Post
>FreeBSD is better than Linux distros and I hope it will always be like that.

What's better? I'm using FreeBSD and Slackware - Slackware since the early 90s, FreeBSD since 5.0 because of quality. I don't have any penalties while using the Slack and I'm really sick of this fanboyism. I don't like any single Linux distro, but at least Slack and to some degree Gentoo. Vice versa PCBSD is in my opinion redundant, especially PBI. So what? Who cares? It's open source, if you want to compete do it with facts not fiction.
Well, I think "better" arguments are usually pretty silly.
I happen to really like the PBI system - it's a nice take on the pre-compiled packages that Debian uses (and Redhat et al copied).

I happen to like the interface of BSD better, but that's because I have a really long background with the actual classical Unix systems (System V, IRIX, AIX, BSD, etc) so I am more likely to type ps aux than ps -ef.

The only really significant differences, so far as I know are:
1) GPL vs BSD licenses
2) Top-down Unix vs bottom-up Linux

I don't think an end user of either system (on a properly configured box) would ever really be aware of it. KDE is KDE, Gnome is Gnome, WindowMaker is WindowMaker.

Last edited by MBybee; 12-17-2009 at 04:59 PM. Reason: I always misspell WindowMaker :D
 
Old 12-17-2009, 10:19 PM   #34
mobydick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver_H View Post
facts not fiction.
The output of top
Code:
last pid:  2331;  load averages:  0.47,  0.55,  0.55  up 0+00:27:16    14:06:30
44 processes:  3 running, 41 sleeping

Mem: 113M Active, 115M Inact, 119M Wired, 1800K Cache, 111M Buf, 643M Free
Swap: 512M Total, 512M Free


  PID USERNAME    THR PRI NICE   SIZE    RES STATE    TIME   WCPU COMMAND
 2276 wolf         1  58    0   116M 28700K RUN      8:01 19.38% operapluginwrapper.
 2238  wolf         1  46    0 52764K 40812K select   0:34  4.69% Xorg
 2254  wolf         3  76    0 82876K 72292K ucond    1:06  4.49% opera
 2321  wolf         2  44    0 43044K 20724K ucond    0:02  0.00% gedit
 2242  wolf         1  44    0 10744K  8364K select   0:01  0.00% wmaker
  352   root          1  44    0  3408K  1168K select   0:01  0.00% moused
  819   root          1  50    0  5608K  2516K ttyin    0:00  0.00% csh
 2252  wolf        1  44    0  5608K  2668K RUN      0:00  0.00% csh
 2246   wolf       1  76    0 27572K  8716K select   0:00  0.00% aterm
 2328   wolf        1  44    0 21096K  5412K select   0:00  0.00% gconfd-2
  821   root          1  44    0  5608K  2576K ttyin    0:00  0.00% csh
 2245   wolf       1  44    0  9884K  6908K select   0:00  0.00% xterm
 2247   wolf       1  44    0  7908K  5328K select   0:00  0.00% xclock
 2330   wolf       1  44    0 19912K  4044K select   0:00  0.00% gam_server
 2249   wolf      1  76    0  5608K  2428K ttyin    0:00  0.00% csh
  832    wolf      1  44    0  5608K  2468K pause    0:00  0.00% csh
  809    root          1  45    0  3764K  1724K wait     0:00  0.00% login
  811    root          1  44    0  3764K  1764K wait     0:00  0.00% login
The output of kldstat
Code:
Id Refs Address    Size     Name
 1    8 0xc0400000 4ef5e8   kernel
 3    1 0xc4666000 e000     fuse.ko
 4    1 0xc56a2000 490000   nvidia.ko
The kernel configuration file:
Code:
cpu		I686_CPU
ident		CUSTOM

# To statically compile in device wiring instead of /boot/device.hints
#hints		"GENERIC.hints"		# Default places to look for devices.

# Use the following to compile in values accessible to the kernel
# through getenv() (or kenv(1) in userland). The format of the file
# is 'variable=value', see kenv(1)
#
# env		"GENERIC.env"

makeoptions 	NO_MODULES	

options 	SCHED_ULE		# ULE scheduler
options 	PREEMPTION		# Enable kernel thread preemption
options 	INET			# InterNETworking
options 	FFS			# Berkeley Fast Filesystem
options 	SOFTUPDATES		# Enable FFS soft updates support
options 	UFS_ACL			# Support for access control lists
options 	UFS_DIRHASH		# Improve performance on big directories
options 	UFS_GJOURNAL		# Enable gjournal-based UFS journaling
options 	MSDOSFS			# MSDOS Filesystem
options		NTFS
options 	CD9660			# ISO 9660 Filesystem
options 	PROCFS			# Process filesystem (requires PSEUDOFS)
options		LINSYSFS
options		LINPROCFS
options 	PSEUDOFS		# Pseudo-filesystem framework
options 	GEOM_PART_GPT		# GUID Partition Tables.
options 	GEOM_LABEL		# Provides labelization
options		COMPAT_LINUX		# Linux compatibility
options 	COMPAT_43TTY		# BSD 4.3 TTY compat (sgtty)
options 	COMPAT_FREEBSD4		# Compatible with FreeBSD4
options 	COMPAT_FREEBSD5		# Compatible with FreeBSD5
options 	COMPAT_FREEBSD6		# Compatible with FreeBSD6
options 	COMPAT_FREEBSD7		# Compatible with FreeBSD7
options 	SYSVSHM			# SYSV-style shared memory
options 	SYSVMSG			# SYSV-style message queues
options 	SYSVSEM			# SYSV-style semaphores

# Bus support.
device		acpi
device		eisa
device		pci

# Floppy drives
device		fdc

# ATA and ATAPI devices
device		ata
device		atadisk		# ATA disk drives
device		atapicd		# ATAPI CDROM drives
device		atapifd		# ATAPI floppy drives
device		atapicam	# SCSI support for ATAPI devices

# SCSI peripherals
device		scbus		# SCSI bus (required for SCSI)
device		da		# Direct Access (disks)
device		cd		# CD
device		pass		# Passthrough device (direct SCSI access)


# atkbdc0 controls both the keyboard and the PS/2 mouse
device		atkbdc		# AT keyboard controller
device		atkbd		# AT keyboard
device		psm		# PS/2 mouse
device		kbdmux		# keyboard multiplexer
device		vga		# VGA video card driver

# syscons is the default console driver, resembling an SCO console
device		sc


# Parallel port
device		ppc
device		ppbus		# Parallel port bus (required)
#device		lpt		# Printer
device		ppi		# Parallel port interface device


# PCI Ethernet NICs that use the common MII bus controller code.
# NOTE: Be sure to keep the 'device miibus' line in order to use these NICs!
device		miibus		# MII bus support
device		fxp		# Intel EtherExpress PRO/100B (82557, 82558)

# Pseudo devices.
device		loop		# Network loopback
device		random		# Entropy device
device		ether		# Ethernet support
device		pty		# BSD-style compatibility pseudo ttys
device		md		# Memory "disks"

# The `bpf' device enables the Berkeley Packet Filter.
# Be aware of the administrative consequences of enabling this!
# Note that 'bpf' is required for DHCP.
device		bpf		# Berkeley packet filter

# USB support
device		uhci		# UHCI PCI->USB interface
device		ohci		# OHCI PCI->USB interface
device		ehci		# EHCI PCI->USB interface (USB 2.0)
device		usb		# USB Bus (required)
device		umass		# Disks/Mass storage - Requires scbus    #and da
device		ums		# Mouse
# Sound support
device		sound		# Generic sound support
device		snd_ich		# ICH sound
It is logical, simple and stable.
Do you want more facts?

Last edited by mobydick; 12-17-2009 at 10:21 PM.
 
Old 12-18-2009, 09:20 AM   #35
MBybee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mobydick View Post
It is logical, simple and stable.
Do you want more facts?
Well, if we're comparing based on stuff like that

How about topas (AIX):
Code:
Topas Monitor for host:    dev12345             EVENTS/QUEUES    FILE/TTY
Fri Dec 18 08:12:10 2009   Interval:  2         Cswitch   61802  Readch    17.9M
                                                Syscall  589.4K  Writech   28.9M
CPU  User%  Kern%  Wait%  Idle%                 Reads     49222  Rawin         0
ALL   36.4   14.6   17.1   32.0                 Writes    17632  Ttyout      714
                                                Forks       265  Igets         0
Network  KBPS   I-Pack  O-Pack   KB-In  KB-Out  Execs       383  Namei    118.8K
en4      30.8K    20.6K   16.3K 9032.3    22.0K Runqueue   14.0  Dirblk        0
en0    6071.7    645.6   360.0    74.0  5997.7  Waitqueue   0.0
lo0    1298.3    946.2   946.2   649.1   649.1
en5       2.9     10.0    11.0     1.3     1.6  PAGING           MEMORY
                                                Faults    71241  Real,MB  220671
Disk    Busy%     KBPS     TPS KB-Read KB-Writ  Steals        0  % Comp     87.7
hdisk159 41.9     24.5K   33.5    24.5K    0.0  PgspIn        0  % Noncomp  12.2
hdisk52  40.4     24.2K   34.0    24.2K    0.0  PgspOut       0  % Client   12.2
hdisk266 37.0     21.4K   28.5    21.4K    0.0  PageIn      655
hdisk373 35.0     20.5K   28.0    20.5K    0.0  PageOut     609  PAGING SPACE
                                                Sios       1331  Size,MB  128000
Name            PID  CPU%  PgSp Owner                            % Used      2.2
pss_rx      1200794   3.3 697.4 symai3          NFS (calls/sec)  % Free     98.8
oraexp      8196984   3.2   1.8 root            ServerV2       0
oracle      3654514   3.1   9.2 oradev          ClientV2       0   Press:
psi_os      1507552   2.7  14.8 symai3          ServerV3       4   "h" for help
sftp-ser    2920556   1.5   0.5 devsftp         ClientV3       0   "q" to quit

There's no rival for SMIT/SMITTY anywhere:
Code:
                                  System Management

Move cursor to desired item and press Enter.

  Software Installation and Maintenance
  Software License Management
  Devices
  System Storage Management (Physical & Logical Storage)
  Security & Users
  Communications Applications and Services
  Print Spooling
  Advanced Accounting
  Problem Determination
  Performance & Resource Scheduling
  System Environments
  Processes & Subsystems
  Applications
  Installation Assistant
  Cluster Systems Management
  Using SMIT (information only)




F1=Help              F2=Refresh            F3=Cancel            F8=Image
F9=Shell             F10=Exit              Enter=Do
And compared to the clean /etc/filesystems layout, /etc/fstab is a freaking mess:
Code:
/tmp:
        dev             = /dev/hd3
        vfs             = jfs2
        log             = /dev/hd8
        mount           = automatic
        check           = false
        vol             = /tmp
        free            = false
        quota           = no

/proc:
        dev             = /proc
        vol             = "/proc"
        mount           = true
        check           = false
        free            = false
        vfs             = procfs
/etc/fstab:
Code:
# device name   mount point     fs-type      options                 dump-freq pass-num
LABEL=/         /               ext3         defaults                1 1
/dev/hda6       swap            swap         defaults                0 0
none            /dev/pts        devpts       gid=5,mode=620          0 0
none            /proc           proc         defaults                0 0
none            /dev/shm        tmpfs        defaults                0 0
 
# Removable media
/dev/cdrom      /mount/cdrom    udf,iso9660  noauto,owner,kudzu,ro   0 0
/dev/fd0        /mount/floppy   auto         noauto,owner,kudzu      0 0

My point being - this is not the basis for a system comparison.
You need to compare on the architecture of the system, the stability of the kernel, the accessibility of the support, and the range of systems supported.
If we're simply going by the beauty and elegance of some utilities and tools, AIX and VMS are lightyears ahead of any free project... deservedly so.

Last edited by MBybee; 12-18-2009 at 09:21 AM. Reason: specified /etc/fstab
 
Old 12-19-2009, 04:12 AM   #36
Oliver_H
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@mobydick

Facts! Those are no facts. Top and FreeBSD kernel config. So what? DO you want to see some Irix or Solaris? Most driver options in Linux are in kernel config, in FreeBSD most driver options are hidden in sysctl's for example. Do you know any sysctl? Even most of the developers just know a bunch of those. It's a mess, especially if you have to cope with a problem. How many drivers got FreeBSD compared to Linux? So Linux kernel config is a mess, missing most of the drivers and technologies of Linux it's no miracle to see FreeBSD shine in this area.

Advantages would be:

1. lots of manpages and actually readable ones
2. developed as a whole system

I didn't mention stability, because stability depends on the hardware context. If you have got better support for your hardware, especially for some quirks FreeBSD isn't top, it's Linux that shines in this area.

FreeBSD has got more and better development cycles in contrast to Linux, that's a fact. But again this is no miracle, with only a "few" testers you have to do it that way. With 1000 times more testers you can do it the messy way like Linux.

But Linux is a massive showstopper if it comes to documentation or continuity (especially in terms of how to configure it from release to release).

I like *BSD, but it's more a matter of personal bias, because it's from release to release familiar terrain. Vice versa Volkerding achieves similar qualities with Slackware.
 
Old 12-20-2009, 12:40 AM   #37
mobydick
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I compared FreeBSD to Linux distros, not other UNIX flavours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver_H View Post
1. lots of manpages and actually readable ones
2. developed as a whole system
These I forgot to mention.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver_H View Post
I like *BSD, but it's more a matter of personal bias, because it's from release to release familiar terrain. Vice versa Volkerding achieves similar qualities with Slackware.
This is my favourite Linux distribution.
It is designed like FreeBSD, to be simple.
I have been running FreeBSD for more than 2 years (started with 6.0-RELEASE).
One cannot call me a fanboy, because I do all my day-to-day
work on my FreeBSD box.
And I got used to it. Now I find Linux distributions awkward and strange.
Tried a few times OpenSolaris, but I found it mysterious and
gave up the idea of learning it.

Last edited by mobydick; 12-20-2009 at 12:45 AM.
 
Old 12-20-2009, 01:01 AM   #38
jstephens84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBybee View Post
Well, if we're comparing based on stuff like that

How about topas (AIX):
Code:
Topas Monitor for host:    dev12345             EVENTS/QUEUES    FILE/TTY
Fri Dec 18 08:12:10 2009   Interval:  2         Cswitch   61802  Readch    17.9M
                                                Syscall  589.4K  Writech   28.9M
CPU  User%  Kern%  Wait%  Idle%                 Reads     49222  Rawin         0
ALL   36.4   14.6   17.1   32.0                 Writes    17632  Ttyout      714
                                                Forks       265  Igets         0
Network  KBPS   I-Pack  O-Pack   KB-In  KB-Out  Execs       383  Namei    118.8K
en4      30.8K    20.6K   16.3K 9032.3    22.0K Runqueue   14.0  Dirblk        0
en0    6071.7    645.6   360.0    74.0  5997.7  Waitqueue   0.0
lo0    1298.3    946.2   946.2   649.1   649.1
en5       2.9     10.0    11.0     1.3     1.6  PAGING           MEMORY
                                                Faults    71241  Real,MB  220671
Disk    Busy%     KBPS     TPS KB-Read KB-Writ  Steals        0  % Comp     87.7
hdisk159 41.9     24.5K   33.5    24.5K    0.0  PgspIn        0  % Noncomp  12.2
hdisk52  40.4     24.2K   34.0    24.2K    0.0  PgspOut       0  % Client   12.2
hdisk266 37.0     21.4K   28.5    21.4K    0.0  PageIn      655
hdisk373 35.0     20.5K   28.0    20.5K    0.0  PageOut     609  PAGING SPACE
                                                Sios       1331  Size,MB  128000
Name            PID  CPU%  PgSp Owner                            % Used      2.2
pss_rx      1200794   3.3 697.4 symai3          NFS (calls/sec)  % Free     98.8
oraexp      8196984   3.2   1.8 root            ServerV2       0
oracle      3654514   3.1   9.2 oradev          ClientV2       0   Press:
psi_os      1507552   2.7  14.8 symai3          ServerV3       4   "h" for help
sftp-ser    2920556   1.5   0.5 devsftp         ClientV3       0   "q" to quit

There's no rival for SMIT/SMITTY anywhere:
Code:
                                  System Management

Move cursor to desired item and press Enter.

  Software Installation and Maintenance
  Software License Management
  Devices
  System Storage Management (Physical & Logical Storage)
  Security & Users
  Communications Applications and Services
  Print Spooling
  Advanced Accounting
  Problem Determination
  Performance & Resource Scheduling
  System Environments
  Processes & Subsystems
  Applications
  Installation Assistant
  Cluster Systems Management
  Using SMIT (information only)




F1=Help              F2=Refresh            F3=Cancel            F8=Image
F9=Shell             F10=Exit              Enter=Do
And compared to the clean /etc/filesystems layout, /etc/fstab is a freaking mess:
Code:
/tmp:
        dev             = /dev/hd3
        vfs             = jfs2
        log             = /dev/hd8
        mount           = automatic
        check           = false
        vol             = /tmp
        free            = false
        quota           = no

/proc:
        dev             = /proc
        vol             = "/proc"
        mount           = true
        check           = false
        free            = false
        vfs             = procfs
/etc/fstab:
Code:
# device name   mount point     fs-type      options                 dump-freq pass-num
LABEL=/         /               ext3         defaults                1 1
/dev/hda6       swap            swap         defaults                0 0
none            /dev/pts        devpts       gid=5,mode=620          0 0
none            /proc           proc         defaults                0 0
none            /dev/shm        tmpfs        defaults                0 0
 
# Removable media
/dev/cdrom      /mount/cdrom    udf,iso9660  noauto,owner,kudzu,ro   0 0
/dev/fd0        /mount/floppy   auto         noauto,owner,kudzu      0 0

My point being - this is not the basis for a system comparison.
You need to compare on the architecture of the system, the stability of the kernel, the accessibility of the support, and the range of systems supported.
If we're simply going by the beauty and elegance of some utilities and tools, AIX and VMS are lightyears ahead of any free project... deservedly so.
Its funny that you mentioned smit. I am actually looking at using java to build a smit clone for linux. That is one tool that I feel is really missing from linux. It makes AIX administration so much easier for certain tasks.
 
Old 12-21-2009, 08:43 AM   #39
MBybee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jstephens84 View Post
Its funny that you mentioned smit. I am actually looking at using java to build a smit clone for linux. That is one tool that I feel is really missing from linux. It makes AIX administration so much easier for certain tasks.
Good plan - not sure I'd care for it in Java, per se... but yes. I have often wished that other Unix systems (and clones, like Linux) had smit. Especially that 'show command' bit that makes it easy to automate complex or weird menu paths.

Also - comparing based on a few specific generic tools is every bit as silly as comparing Unix systems. Linux is, like it or not, much more deeply entrenched in the big company mindsets. It's the tools like Veritas, Oracle, DB2, SAP, Peoplesoft and such that matter. Not tools like top.

Systems that use BSD in the background like appliances and such are fighting a losing battle for mindshare.

<edit> It's probably worth mentioning that a lot of the 'problems' with Linux come from the pressure applied by companies like IBM pushing their code into Linux... desktop kernels shouldn't really be built the same way as server kernels. </edit>

Last edited by MBybee; 12-21-2009 at 09:08 AM. Reason: needed to expand my point a bit
 
Old 12-21-2009, 09:27 AM   #40
rocket357
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sysinstall would be probably the closest thing FreeBSD has to smit, and that's a stretch...or a starting point, depending on how you look at it.
 
Old 12-22-2009, 11:59 AM   #41
MBybee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocket357 View Post
sysinstall would be probably the closest thing FreeBSD has to smit, and that's a stretch...or a starting point, depending on how you look at it.
I'd call it a starting point - you might be able to tuck some of it under the 'post install config' section, but I think you'd really just want to start over, but make it feel like sysinstall.

BTW - sysinstall is SO missing from Linux. Every Linux distro seems to have grown some method of replacing it, but usually they just pile tools together until they get there. GParted, User Manager, etc.
 
Old 12-22-2009, 03:30 PM   #42
rocket357
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I'm a firm believer in "wrap your habits around the OS, not the OS around your habits" (i.e. I learn the "native" OS tools moreso than write my own, unless of course the native tools just aren't up to par), but a system configuration manager (even a simple script) would be nice for Linux/BSD.
 
Old 12-25-2009, 11:33 PM   #43
jjthomas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mobydick View Post
Tried a few times OpenSolaris, but I found it mysterious and gave up the idea of learning it.
Same here. I'm trying to get my mind around FreeBSD.

-JJ
 
Old 01-27-2010, 03:39 PM   #44
Andrew4096
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Thumbs down Up a creek ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MBybee View Post
Is it going anywhere? Was my experience just unusual? What experiences have you guys had with it?
I just tried it for the first time yesterday. It bombed. I burned the boot-only CD, then performed a network install over the Internet using that disc. The installation seemed to be going well, although it took about 5 hours. When it finished, I had a brain-dead system, unable to load Xorg, and it got caught in an infinite loop with a 640x480 text screen scrolling the same four lines forever. Strange, because the GUI installer looked good and seemed to handle my monitor and video card without problems.

I found a report of an identical experience a couple of months ago on the PCBSD forum, different video card, different monitor, so my experience obviously wasn't a fluke. A seemingly more experienced user suggested booting into single-user mode and editing the Xorg configuration by hand. I can't believe it! As much maligned as Bill Gates is, he never would have suggested that Windows 95 users tweak video drivers by hand in order to get the GUI to come up! I carefully transcribed what I was seeing on my screen with pencil and paper and added my comment to the thread several hours ago, and it has yet to appear while the moderator "approves" my posting. What a joke -- the Ubuntu forums could never operate in this manner.

Face it: PCBSD is going nowhere. Unless they can come up with a Live CD version that lets people prove it out quickly without having to spend half a day, only to face what looks like an insurmountable roadblock to the novice, it won't catch on.

Last edited by Andrew4096; 01-27-2010 at 03:40 PM. Reason: add URL
 
  


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